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Here is another pic of severe columnaris.

[link=http://www.fishjunkies.com/images/Columnaris2.jpg]http://www.fishjunkies.com/images/Columnaris2.jpg" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

I've got more in some books, but can't upload them. The pics I have involve fish with scales and the puffer doesn't quite have the same external makeup. Looking at the skin, it just smacks of a really severe infection that just isn't responding.

Whatever you do, don't mix nets or other equipment without sterilizing, including gravel tubes, before using on other tanks, and wash your hands.

:#(

Gilbert passed away tonight at 10:00 EDT. He went peacefully, before I was able to euthanize him. Even though I had him only a short time, he will be missed.

Awww - I know how awful it is. Somehow, they let you know it is time. There is a look they have on their face, or a look they give you that just lets you know that they are in too much agony to continue. Any fish that still eats is not at that point. When the fish goes off food, then I start to consider euthanasia, if they don't pass in a day or two naturally.

My brother rescued a betta that was sitting in a half-evaporated 5 gallon, in the sun, at someone's curb on trash night. He called me to ask if I wanted him and there was no doubt I would take him. He was defnitely mature and I estimated him at a good 2-3 years. One year after I had him, he just got weak and started to go downhill. I literally had to use tweezers to put food directly in front of him where he lay on the gravel. Then, after about 5 days of this, he wouldn't even eat. After two days of not taking food, I wasn't going to watch him starve to death so I did the deed and it was the most painful thing I had ever done. I cried so hard because he wanted to live, but it just wasn't going to happen for him. I knew that my final act of love for him was to not let him suffer any longer. I only use euthanasia for deaths that will be prolonged. Otherwise, I let them slip away naturally.

Since you are familiar with clove oil, the best way to proceed is the way that you know how to get him relaxed. Once that happens, you add more so that he overdoses. at 1/4 mL per Litre, it is fatal, but you must followup with freezing or other method to ensure they are gone after you see their gills have stopped. I leave them in solution at least an hour, then I move them to a freezer or outdoors if it is cold enough. I have used a bubbler in a disposable glad-type plastic container so I can discard it, but you probably have something you use.

Here is more:

http://www.vetmate.com.au/templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?Story_No=1885

If you don't mind, I would love to hear the step-by-step process you use to anesthesize your fish, including container size and other details. I forgot about teeth cutting on puffers. Also, how do the puffers respond when first exposed to the clove oil?

You asked if he could have picked this up where he came from. The answer is a definite yes. This is why we quarantine. Columnaris, in particular, is highly contagious. Something I analyze at the lfs is what nets are used. Do they use the same nets to remove dead and dying fish or sick fish that they use to bag your fish? If so, buy a brand new 0.99 cent net and ask them to use it to net your fish. Even then, your fish are at risk just be virtue of the fact that it is being dipped into so many tanks without sterilization. I watched in Lansing at Pruess Pets how they use their nets once, then place them into a bucket of highly saline solution before being moved later or the next day to a fresh bucket. Both buckets were loaded with nets - some being sterilized and some ready for use. This is a great sign.

When a fish is netted, they will likely lose a little slim coat. In the process, they may pick up a scrape here and there that breaks the skin. When they are stressed due to transfer, their immunity drops and if columnaris is present in the water column, BANG! - you have a sick fish in your quarantine within 72 hours of bringing them home. Some may take longer. And, columnaris is present in most tanks and has been found on rotting fish food. It takes the stress and opening to provide the opportunity for infection.

Septicemia can take 7-10 days to see in quarantine if they picked it up in the lfs tank. Certain parasites can take up to 3 weeks - those that are typical in aquaria.

I think you did everything right. It may not even be the lfs and the fish could have been carrying something from the breeder.

Knowing the nature of puffers and their knack for nipping each other, I think his infection may very well have initiated with an infection in the fin that then spread. One way columnaris manifests itself is as a "saddleback lesion". They call it that because it surrounds the dorsal fin, which is how I believe Gilbert started. From the fin, the surrounding back tissue would have been easy for it to migrate to. Columnaris can be resistant to many meds and I know that Sulfa and Tetracycline have somewhat fallen out of favor, without boosting from other combinations. Of the four strains identified, some columnaris infections can wipe out a tank in under 24 hours. I watched as it ate away the face of a rasbora I had just bought that was in quarantine. Typical mouth fungus, which is columnaris. I the AM he had one spot and I put e-mycin in the tank. By evening, he had no face - it was gone up to the eyeball. Needless to say, I had to euthanize as he was still swimming around, in a panic, wondering what was happening, I'm sure. He would never be able to eat again, so it was pointless to do anything. I had to move to save the others in quarantine and ended up in a long 6 week battle to stem the start up in others. I was successful, but it was pricey and stressful to say the least.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 11-Apr-2005 10:39

I'm so sorry, I am at least glad that you didn't have to put him down yourself, that is so hard, particularly when it's a favourite fish

RIP Gilbert

Sounds good. Some people just don't know and there are many ways so I thought i would ask.

One challenge is any filter. That is why I use the Lee Tri-Flo Corner/Box filters in the hospital/quarantine now. I stuff a handful of seeded gravel in the bottom, followed by filter floss and I squirt bacterial starter on the floss and in the gravel. I can always add activated carbon below the floss if I need to pull out meds. Then, it is easily sterilized. I keep several on hand and it is powered by an airpump.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3918&Ntt=tri%2Dflow%20corner%20filter&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1

Last edited by Cory_Di at 12-Apr-2005 10:28

Ok, there are currently two ghost shrimp living in the qt tank. I threw them in hoping that he would eat them a while back...he didn't. Anyway, I was wondering what I should do with them? I'm a little nervous about putting them in with any fish or using them as food now...

How long can you keep them quarantined?

The next question is to find out just how much salt such shrimp can handle. Is it 0.3% (1 Tbsp/Gal)? How about 0.6% (2 Tbsp/Gal)?

Personally, I would net them out, set up a 2 gallon with all clean water and just q-tine them for a month or so. Push the salt as high as they can tolerate. If there were parasites involved, that should cover it. If it was bacteria, clean water and time will kill it.

Did these things actually survive Furacyn?

Yup, they survived the furacyn!

I've had them live in Specific gravities as high as 1.010, or halfway to saltwater, and they're currently in 1.008 or so. I'm not sure what the percentage is on that though, it's equal to 1/4 cup per gallon.

That's really high.

I still think it was a bacterial infection. I would just quarantine the wee guys for a good month or so. But, that's me

I normally use bleach to sterilize when I need to. I normally use it with one part bleach, three parts water. Will that be sufficient or should I use a stronger mixture?

The levels are low, I've been monitoring them, nitrite is at zero, ammonia was barely registering (color changed, but not enough for accurate measure) but I did a ~50% water change tonight, so that would have corrected the ammonia issue.

I've never euthanized before, but I'm familar with the process and clove oil. (it's used for puffer teeth trimming in a non-lethal dose) My only question would be how much?

Also, I was wondering, could he have come home from the lfs with it?

Arg. I feel so horrible right now...like somehow I've let the little guy down. Some days this hobby is no fun at all.

Last edited by puffer_archer at 11-Apr-2005 00:03

At this point, I would do a water change and dilute it. The question in my mind, is whether it is infection or burns. Check parameters too. That skin is sooooo exposed as raw as it was before we even started. If the infection has progressed to that level, then it won't much matter any way.

EDIT: I just did a comparison to pic 1 from page one and your latest broad pic. I can see the sunken eyes in the latest pic. That appears to me that he is headed into dropsy. You would want to decrease the salinity a little in that case, but if it is dropsy related to the infection, then it is a matter of time before he slips away.

The infection just may have been much too severe.

Have you ever euthanized a fish before? If you feel he is suffering and truly believe he has no chance of recovery and want to shorten it, we can give you some ideas. I personally use Clove Oil in a disposable container with tank water (it's late, but I can explain if you want). No method is pretty. I often wait it out a little and see if they will expire on their own and I keep them comfortable. But if it looks like they are suffering, then I'll take them out.

Such a shame. It's so easy to get attached and want them to fight.

Double check ammonia and nitrite. Even tho you have nitrofurazone in the water, lets just make sure about the levels.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 10-Apr-2005 23:03

I'm so sorry and it's no help at all but I did want to say that I've been following this and I really hope this cute little guy gets better!
*crosses fingers*

Here are the pictures:

Broad pic

Redness Close up

Yeah, the last dose was only a half-3/4 dose. I'll see if I can get some pictures.

Awww - sorry to hear that. A few days without eating won't do that, but swelling of the face will. The poor thing is probably headed into dropsy. The infection may have gotten into his system - always a danger with external infections or parasites.

Did you reduce the med a little in case it was that?

Can you upload another pic to show the redness?

Poor fella

Well, although he did become more active, I fear he may be too far gone and that the internal damage may be severe. I still cannot get him to eat. His eyes have begun to sink in and he is developing red sores on his side.

Remember something about such skin and fin degradations. They go downhill really fast, but the climb back up is slow and tedious. I don't think you will see any of that heal any time soon. Once the pitting and fin erosion stops, the rebuilding proces will take time.

That having been said, it's possible you will need to make a call and maybe not do a second round, but observe if it appears to have halted. It's a catch-22.

The lack of apetite could be read two ways:

1) The medication as you suggest

2) The infection has hit him internally and he's headed for more trouble.

My gut instinct would be to back off the Furacyn a little and go with a lower dose in case it is #1. If the infection has progressed to the point to kill his apetite after 2 days in bath, then I don't know how likley it is he can recover regardless of what you put in the tank.

By all means, use the garlic.

Still active, he recieved a water change today and the second dose. It's really difficult to tell if his skin has made any change, but it doesn't seem like it's getting any worse. The only problem now is I think the furacyn has taken his appetite, he hasn't been eating. I'll probably have to break out the old garlic if I can't get him to eat in a day or so.

I went in a random pet store today and found more furacyn! So, I now have enough for 3 additional treatments if need be. However, I'm sure it won't come to that.

How's Gilbert doing

Last edited by Cory_Di at 07-Apr-2005 21:31