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Yup, they survived the furacyn!

I've had them live in Specific gravities as high as 1.010, or halfway to saltwater, and they're currently in 1.008 or so. I'm not sure what the percentage is on that though, it's equal to 1/4 cup per gallon.

That's really high.

I still think it was a bacterial infection. I would just quarantine the wee guys for a good month or so. But, that's me

I don't think so. Just make sure you don't have a strong light on it. If in doubt, drape a towel over it.

I was editing above as you were typing. I just wanted to state that it is listed for FW and SW, so that is a plus at your salinity.

Nitrofurazone happens to be effective for certain parasites as well, so if there's something else operating there, it could help kill it off.

Furanase is the one I didn't want you to confuse it with. Furacyn, with a Y. Active ingredient: Nitrofurazone.

Please keep us updated. We're pulling for the little guy.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 05-Apr-2005 15:14

An antibiotic and some melafix in the tank, good luck.

Wow Puffer - I'm pretty good with pictures, but that one is stumping me.

On the one hand, I see what looks like fin degradation, but I know that puffers together in a tank can pick on each other pretty good. I'm wondering if that isn't what happened to his back - a mechanical injury from another puffer.

On the other hand, the pits are just too numerous to be a mechanical injury. The exterior on puffers just aren't like ordinary scaled fish, so is this what an infection looks like on a puffer? Or, is it the work of parasites. I'm leaning towards infection just because of the appearance of the fin.

You've ruled out a water quality issue, but what about other things like additives? Do you use something to eliminate both chlorine and chloramine? Do you dose it at the correct rate for chloramine? (some conditioners require twice as much for it). Fertilizers?

Is he at least eating? By the pictures he looks rather grave.

You could certainly try melafix, but if a surface infection has gone internal (based on lethargy), then I'd go for a Nitrofuran. Furacyn would be my choice because it can be used at full strength for scaleless and sensitive fish. But, Aquatronics is out of business, be it temporary or permanent and Furacyn is getting harder to find. Fungus Clear would be easier to find and it does have acriflavine in it. The acriflavine will work against some protozoans. I do not know if you can use it at full strength with puffers tho. I would dose at half strength and contact jungle at their website www.junglelabs.com. Use "Contact the lab". You might even send them your pictures and see what they say. Hopefully, puffer has that kind of time. My experience with Jungle is you can expect a 24-48 hour turnaround on your email (business days).

Sorry we couldn't help more. I hope the wee guy makes it. Aren't you glad you used a q-tine?

Before dosing any meds, watch to see if he is flicking against anything.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 04-Apr-2005 22:23

Thanks for the input. This has definitely been a stumper for many people.

I forgot to mention the between pics 1 and 2 and the other three there is a span of 4 days. If you look closely you can see how it has progressed. Also, I've been treating with marycin (erythromycin) to protect against secondary infection and the fin has been clearing up nicely. Unfortunately the skin rot (for lack of a better term) is still progressing. Yesterday he received a 15 minute formulin dip, recommended on another site, and did not stress out over it, I'm waiting to see if that stops the progression.

As for eating, he still has an appetite, but I'm not sure how much he is actually consuming, I think he is spitting most of the krill/bloodworms/mysis shrimp back out.

I use a dechlorinator that removes both and use it at the correct dosing. The new quarantine tank is bare, because I was worried something was being leached into the water of the old one. I've spent a lot of time watching him, and he has never flashed.

I was able to swab his back and examine it under a microscope. Although we found bacteria, we did not find any indication of fungii, or protozoa for that matter, though they can be ellusive.

If he keeps going downhill, I may soon have to consider euthanasia.

Pic from yesterday

Last edited by puffer_archer at 04-Apr-2005 22:55

E-Mycin can be good, but it is not readily absorbed into the bloodstream as are nitrofurans. If the infection is affecting him internally as it erodes him externally, then you need something working in the bloodstream. I'm just not sure what a safe dose is for a puffer, other than with Furacyn, which claims it is safe at full strength on scaleless and sensitive fish.

I'm going to suggest that you supplement the E-Mycin with Jungle's new AntiBacteria medicated food, IF you can get him to eat it. I know that has to be a challenge with a puffer. It is a pellet that you can crush to a smaller size. Cracking it will certainly allow it to sink and maybe if it sinks right in front of him, he'll eat it.

Poor fella. It must be heartbreaking to watch. Whatever you do, don't share equipment with other tanks and wash hands thoroughly after working with that tank. I'd sterilize anything you need to use with bleach after it touches even a drop of that water, just in case.

As long as he is eating, I would not euthanize.

Costia is a challenging bug to find in microscopy. What strength did you view it at?

Were you able to identify the bacteria?

Here is something on costia, which requires 400x magnification to see. It contains a picture too.

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/costia.htm

Movies on various parasites:

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/video/fishmovies.htm

More microscopic reference pics, if you don't have them.

http://www.ntlabs.co.uk/microscope_diagnosis.htm

Last edited by Cory_Di at 04-Apr-2005 23:20

Thanks for the advice, I'll go shopping tomorrow and see what I can find.

Here is a link to another thread where I posted pictures from the microscope. I believe magnification was at 400, but it may have been only 100, I don't remember, mainly because it was a friend who was actually using the scope.

I also had a person recommend Kanmycin Sulfate. They said that it looked similar to Flexibacter/Columnaris, though it is not an exact match.

Columnaris is what I was suspecting. It can manifest itself in so many different ways on fins and skin. I know on fish with scales, the scales can be outlined in white and elevated locally. However, with a fish such as a puffer, how does it look?

The question with the Kanacyn is how much to dose - full or half. YOu may want to try half, then increase it a few hours later, if you can be there to watch him. If I'm not mistaken, you are looking at another Aquatronics Product which may be difficult to find. Once again, they are not making meds atm as far as I know and may have gone out of business. Seachem's Kanaplex is the only other product I know of that has Kanamycin, but you are not likely to find that locally. I've seen it online. If you happen to find Kanacyn, then you will likely be right near a box of Furacyn. Furacyn is advertised as safe at full strength with scaleless and sensitive fish. It is nitrofurazone, which is effective for gram positive and negative, including columnaris and internal infections. Like Kanacyn, it is readily absorbed into the bloodstream. However, Nitrofurazone can be deactivated by light, so I would recommend dimming the tank if you go that route.

That is great you were able to work with someone on microscopy and that a prof got involved.

I see someone advised Malachite on Puffernet. I would advise caution with such meds as the puffer, I believe, is classified in the "scaleless or sensitive" category. If you were to use it, I would do so at a reduced strength and if you have antibiotics in the water, safety of mixing would be an issue.

What units are shown in the microscope pic? According to my Fish Disease - Diagnosis and Treatment by Edward J. Noga, professor of aquatic medicine, the long thin rods of columnaris are about 0.5 to 1.0 x 4 to 10 um (the u is used in place of the greek symbol that looks like a u with a tail in the front ).

I'd still contact Jungle labs before it is too late this week and tell them you believe you have isolated flexibacter and want to know if Fungus Clear is safe at full strength with puffers. They also have a phone number at their site, but I don't know if it is toll free.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 05-Apr-2005 13:25

Here is the jungle contact info from an email - they do have an 800 number. Give them a call:

If you have any problems or
need any other information, please do not hesitate to call our Customer Service Representatives at 1-800-357-7104 or e-mail us at info@junglelabs.com. And don't forget to check out Club Jungle at www.clubjungle.com. Check back regularly for tips and free samples

.

The nitrorfurazone in the product will work against the external infection and any internal infection that may have come about. It is also effective for aeromonas infections. The acriflavine will also work against the columnaris.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 05-Apr-2005 13:34

Thanks for all of the help and input. I'm not sure what the units are, but I could find out.

I am pretty sure a nearby store has kanacyn and furacyn. Would you recommend one of those over the jungle labs fungus clear? (lol, reading back over the posts it seems you would recommend the furacyn. )

Even though it was recommended, I was not planning on using Malachite green, I've never really had much success with it, and it's just too risky for scaleless sensitive fish like puffers.

I contacted Jungle labs, so hopefully I'll hear back soon.

Last edited by puffer_archer at 05-Apr-2005 14:39

It's good you've contacted Jungle Labs just in case. I would tell you to snatch up as many boxes of Furacyn that you can get (if expiration dates are reasonable). The reason I recommend Furacyn is that it is SAFE at FULL STRENGTH for SCALELESS and SENSITIVE FISH. We know this because IT IS STATED ON THE PACKAGE. I don't know how you normally treat puffers, but my impression is that they are in that sensitive category. This means, many meds must be halved and the dosing may not be as effective. You can use the Furacyn safely at full stregth. If he goes belly up, it won't be the med. Also, I believe you will see it is effective in both FW and SW.

I have used Furacyn, full strength in a tank that had otos and tiny habrosus cories without any adverse effects on fish or even the biofilter. Also, it does not make the mess that meds like E-Mycin, tetracycline, and sulfa do (you know, the cloudy water and ghostly slime that covers everything a day or two after you start treatment). That is beneficial bacteria dying.

Kanacyn is also very good, but I have also been trying to understand some claims that certain catfish are intolerant of it. I've not found much other than it seems to be a debate. With this in mind, I'd be a little hesitant to use it on a puffer at full strength unless you know of other puffer folks who have used it at full strength without incident.

Please keep us updated as this is very interesting. I would not delay. If you have E-Mycin in the tank, simply do a 25-30% same temp change, maybe run some carbon for two hours, then pull it and dump in the Furacyn.

I bought 3 boxes of the stuff that I would be glad to throw out if I don't use before they expire. But I know that if I run into problems in my tank, I can use it. So many of these meds combine other things that can adversely affect sensitive fish or even plants. Acriflavine is not favorable to live plants.

Do email Jungle just to find out if you can use Fungus Clear at Full Strength and would they recommend it in your case. Send them the pictures. If you get that email out today, you have a chance to get an opinion. Most Jungle antibiotics are nitrofurans and with good reason - they are broad spectrum and well absorbed into the bloodstream. They work for external infections but address internal infections that quickly follow. With Maracyn, you have to use one for the columnaris, then you have to use the Maracyn-2 for secondary infection potential.

Just to reiterate, it is FURACYN. It is in the orange box. There are some similarly named products and this is the only one I've seen that touts to be safe for scaleless and sensitive fish at full strength. Get enough for a minimum of 2 rounds in case it begins to clear, but isn't gone. If you get more, power to you as it is getting harder to find.

If you use Furancyn, KILL THE LIGHTS. It doesn't state it on the box, but nitrofurans can be deactivated by light. When in doubt, kill them.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 05-Apr-2005 15:11

Good news, the store I thought had furacyn does have it, so I will be travelling there this evening to pick some up. I have not been running the lights on the tank, but do I need to darken the tank more than that to keep from inactivating the med?

Ok, so I bought my new ceylon 3 weeks ago, he had some minor fin damage, but other than that he looked really good. I brought him home and quarantined him, well, over the duration of this week, he's begun to deteriorate with something that I've never seen before, his skin is developing holes and they are growing...at an alarming rate! The tank parameters are Am=0 NI=0 NA=5ppm PH=7.8 SG=1.007 Temp=79. For the most part he is still eating well and swimming fine, though definitely lethargic. Any thoughts/recommendations would be greatly appreciated!

pic1

pic2

pic3

pic4

pic5

Oh yeah, it's a ten gallon qt tank and he's the sole inhabitant, 50% weekly changes and I have been raising the SG .002 per week for three weeks now.

Last edited by puffer_archer at 01-Apr-2005 00:06

Last edited by puffer_archer at 11-Apr-2005 21:20

Well, I just got back from the store...I drove an hour got there right before they closed and grabbed the last one on the shelf. Expiration date is 7/05, so it's still good. I also grabbed a kanacyn just to have, it doesn't expire until 2007.

And it's in the bright orange box, so I'm going to do a 75% water change and then I'll add this, probably do the half dose first just to be safe and go from there.

Be gentle with such a large water change and match the temp within 1F to not shock him.

I think you'll find he will be just fine with it. Don't short change him on the dosing if you can add the other half later. That is one fish that looks like it is at death's door. There is a delicate balancing act in not killing the fish trying to cure him. But when they look as bad as this one does, you almost have to go all out.

This is why I recommended the Furacyn because it is potent, yet deemed safe at full strength for scaleless and sensitive fish.

Yup, he ended up with the full dose and is still doing "fine" he tried to eat again tonight, and I think he had some success. If there's one fish I think can pull through this, Gilbert is definitely the one!

I'm always very cautious with large water changes, but they are also standard practice for me as a puffer keeper. Because they're such messy fish, it's the only reasonable way to maintain nitrate levels. However, I was wondering about water changes. Since the nitrifying bacteria are dead, I'm facing a serious problem with ammonia. The furacyn did not mention anything about water changes, but I need to maintain the good water quality, otherwise he doesn't stand a chance. What is the best way to go about that with this med?

Last edited by puffer_archer at 05-Apr-2005 23:17

What I do is a large water change before redosing each capsule, which is every other day. If you must do daily changes, try to keep it to something like 50% so that you can add half the med back into the tank. I always add a little med back when I have to change water before I can redose.

Well, I'll keep an eye on the ammonia, but hopefully I'll be able to do it every other day. Thanks for the help!

BTW- When I got up this morning and checked on him, he was swimming around! While it didn't last long, it's more than I've seen him do in a while, so it's definitely encouraging.

Great - is that after a night of nitrofurazone? If so, that is very encouraging. What is also great about the nitrofurazone is it has other positive effects too. Not only does it work against some parasites, it counters the adverse effects of ammonia - What more could you ask for in a hospital tank.

One caveat that I have found is that some literature will state that Nitrofurazone can adversely affect some scaleless fish. Aquatronics may have formulated it in a way that is safe for them, or it simply may not be as strong as others. I have found other sources of 100% Nitrofurazone, but it seems to me it was 380mg per capsule. I don't think that is the case with the Furacyn. I have also found something that suggests it is not as effective at higher pH levels. The more acidic the better, but this flies in the face of Furacyn's claims to be for Freshwater and Saltwater.

I guess your little guy is going to let us know one way or the other, if he is not too sick.

Give him some real good high protein food so he can rebuild tissue.

What do you feed puffers anyway

I love those little buggers I can see why people would want them. When you look into their eyes, it looks like there is somebody in there . I wanted a dwarf puffer tank, but when I saw how much they damaged each other and found out I had to feed them live food every day, I didn't think I was ready for it. But, they are absolutely adorable. A marine boxfish had the same effect on me. He kept looking at me like, "take me home, please".

Oh - and you have one box, which is 10 capsules. How many gallons is the tank? If 10 gallons, then you should have more than enough to do two rounds. Don't hesitate do continue treatment for one additional round if you see that it is "almost" cleared, but not gone. Stopping would only allow the bacteria to make a gain towards resistance to the antibiotic. Better it goes longer than too short. With the larger water changes you would be doing every other day, this shouldn't allow it to accumulate.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Apr-2005 14:12

Yup, he's been much more active today after a night of the furacyn, so I'm definitely going to feed him well tonight. His diet consists of frozen and live foods, krill, mysis shrimp, crickets, small crayfish and crabs. Since he's been sick I've been primarily feeding him krill soaked in vitamins.

I didn't realize it conteracts ammonia...that's good to know.

Yup, ten gallon tank, so two full treatments plus I have the kanacyn if after two treatments of the furacyn he wouldn't be completely better. However, I know he will be!

Last edited by puffer_archer at 06-Apr-2005 17:28

That's so promising.

I do want to caution you about one thing regarding internal infections (often follows external infection, causing lethargy and grave appearance). He's not out of the woods for several weeks after he appears allright. Some of those internal infections cna wreak havoc on internal organs, permanently damaging them. That is why it is so important to control external infections early and to even treat for internal infections while they have external ones. It takes very little for it to get into the bloodstream and once that happens, recovery chances go down.

This is also why I like using Nitrofurans - you don't have to guess whether it is a gram negative or positive infection - it works for both. With the Maracyn's you often have to dose both 1 & 2 to do the same job, and neither of them is absorbed that well into the bloodstream. I think that explains why his fin seemed to be healing with the E-Mycin, but he continued with lethargy and general ill appearance.

I hope you'll give updates. It is good to have feedback one way or another. It helps us to help others.

Yup, I also recieved a reply from Jungle Labs today:

Thank you for your inquiry about Jungle® products. We are happy that you have chosen our products to use in your aquarium to help you maintain the best possible environment for your fish and plants.

Puffers are so sensitive, and while Jungle® Fungus Clear is safe at full strength for just about all freshwater fish, I would do treatment a little different in his case: treat half strength in the morning, and later in the afternoon add the other half dose. After that, you will, of course, want to wait four days before treating again. Keep a close eye on him so you can make an emergency water change if he shows the slightest sign of distress.

So, even though I'm not going to be using the product, this is what they recommended, good to know for future reference!

Last edited by puffer_archer at 06-Apr-2005 18:31

Thanks so much for sharing. Keep in mind that they have other drugs in there, in addition to the Nitrofurazone so that may be why they recommend half dose.

However, it is also a good warning to watch Gilbert closely for any signs of stress. It will build in his body with time so maybe you will want to use just under a full dose, unless you feel he is doing really well with it. I'm very intersted in further feedback. I need to check the mg on the package to see the strength.