FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Hi everyone. I found this site after purchasing and setting up my first tank (sadly I should have done my homework first) My fish have died.

It is a 10 gal Hagen starter kit and I allowed only 24 hours for it to cycle before adding the fish. I used Cycle and water conditioner as per the directions. I then added 4 common goldfish (I now know I overstocked and it won't happen again) The temp was between 72-74* (no heater). All was well for the first 8 days until I discovered that I had Ich and lost the first of the fish. I purchased and treated the tank with CopperSafe. At the same time I purchased a test kit to check the water (sorry, I don't have the test numbers with me right now) but all of the levels seemed good. The second fish died two days later. The third and fourth followed within 72 hours.

So right now I have an empty tank. I plan on testing the water after work today (the latest death was this morning) Before I take the life of another unsuspecting fish I would love some input on what might be going on. Thanks in advance.

Since you're starting over, start over the right way...

Empty the tank and fill with new water that is heated to 78 degrees.

Purchase the fish of your choice, perhaps a few Mollies, and acclimate the fish in the store bag by floating in the tank for an hour and slowing adding a little tank water at a time to the bag until the pH of the bag water matches that of the tank water.

After the fish are in the tank add the "New Improved Cycle" according to bottle directions and post back if any problems arise.

--garyroland.

Do you recommend I also wash out the gravel and ornaments prior to adding new water? Will traces of ich still be present?

Ich cannot survive without a fish host. You should be fine, especially if you allow the tank to stand empty but running for a week.

Here are two links which you may have read already but I highly reccomend re-reading.
[link=Link about cycling]http://www.fishprofiles.net/faq/begin-cycling.asp" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link]
[link=Link about good beginner fish]http://www.fishprofiles.net/faq/fish-popular.asp" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link]

Please keep in mind how small your tank is and, IME&O, not sutible for any fish that grows larger than 2".

^_^
Current [link=Contest Rules]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/44382.html?200412022138" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link][/font]

Welcome to Fishprofiles.com Iron Mike. Sorry for the bad experience and glad you are taking the time to understand what happened and how to do it right.

I hadn't really thought about ich and drying things out until Gary brought it up the other day. I would like Gary to elaborate on whether you should spread the gravel out and let it dry, rather than just rinsing and letting the ich possibly get back in. Otherwise, like Babel mentioned, let the tank run empty for a while after refilling. Consider turning the heat up to about 86F for a week, then dropping it back down the temp Gary recommended if you use the same gravel and don't dry it out.

While you wait for that process, I would encourage you to consider egglayers instead of livebearers. When I first started, I almost started with livebearers as they are often quite hardy and most people use them as a first fish. This includes mollies, guppies and many others. The problem is that they are livebearers and will produce fry every few weeks to monthly. The parents will often eat the young and if you don't want an exponential nightmare, it's probably wise to let nature take its course and let mom and dad snack on them (I know, so awful). The alternative is to be in a position of having to continuously take batches of fry to the fish store for credit. Problem is many stores just won't take them, or dump them in feeder tanks that are filthy and disgusting where they await to be dinner.

One of the best starter fish that is an egglayer is a White Cloud Mountain Minnow. They are nicely colored (as shown in a shot of one of my males), only get to about 1.5 inches, and are a blast to watch as they play and the males flair fins at each other. They are hardy to cycling toxins of ammonia and nitrite and if you use Cycle as Gary mentions, they will do well. If you put some fake bushy plants in a corner you can watch them spawn regular. Mine started while the tank was cycling. Before I added Cory catfish, the eggs actually hatched, but larger tanks are no place for freshly hatched larval fish (two eye-balls and a tail). None survived. The cories clean up any eggs during the night that get dropped so control is not a problem.

The only difference you would make in the setup Gary described is to place your temp at around 75F. I would recommend finding out what temp the fish store has their white clouds at, then getting yours within 2F of that. You can always adjust 1F daily to get it to where you want. I keep my 20 long community at 74-75F with white clouds because they are cool water fish. But they are housed with trops that don't like 70F, like Harlequin Rasboras, cories, and otos (dwarf algae eaters).

You could start with 5 White Clouds until the tank is done cycling (as defined by zero ammonia, nitrite and nitrates that are at least 10ppm). This means you have developed a good bacterial colony that eats ammonia and nitrite as fast as it is being produced and turning it to nitrate. The nitrate comes down with water changes as you will read in the link Babel provided.

Some things to consider from the fish store:

- Hagen Cycle or Marineland BioSpira (harder to find but better than Cycle).

- Doc Wellfish Freshwater Aquarium Salt (to be added during cycling to reduce nitrite uptake into the bloodstream). Just put a tiny glad disposable container in the bottom of the tank after filling it with about 2tsp of salt per gallon. Poke holes in the lid and sink it. It will dissolve slowly.

-Aquarium Pharmacueticals Master Test Kit (if you can afford it). It is actually cheaper in catalog places like That Fish Place and I see they have changed it to include Nitrate. I've seen this same kit as high as 27.99 in fish stores locally and its only 14.99 online. If you don't live in PA, you shouldn't have to pay taxes either:

http://www.thatpetplace.com/Products/KW/F73%2cMAN1044/Class/Fish+Supplies+Aquarim+Pharmaceuticals+Test+Kits/T1/F73+1044+0142/EDP/1109/Itemdy00.aspx

You can buy these individually at your fish store. For cycling, you need ammonia and nitrite to start, then when you are starting to see nitrite, you will want to think about getting a nitrate kit so you can see the cycle complete itself. Also nitrate kits are good help you see when you need to do partial water changes because we try to keep them to 20ppm or less or 5-15ppm if you have live plants.

Also, noteworthy is that ich can easily be brought on if fish are chilled. I don't know if you did any water changes after you got them or if they carried the ich on them when they got into your tank. But, when you do partial water changes, always look at the temp and make sure when you do the water change you do not drop the overall temp more than 1-1.5F or raise it by more than that. There are lots of creative ways to do this. I personally keep several gallon jugs of preconditioned tap water for my 20 long that sit and age, waiting for water change day on Saturdays. Its already room temp. Since I only have 4-5 degrees difference, I often just stick the jugs in about 2 inches of hot water for 3 minutes to bring them up a little in temp. The aged water is always best for fish when practical.

I hope this wasn't too much info for you.

Here's the profile on White Clouds and one of my best pics a little larger than it shows in the profile. While the temp max is shown at 72, I've kept mine for years at 75 without a problem. Cloth fake plants make them feel more at home than an empty tank too.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/whitecloud.xml

Cory_Di attached this image:



Last edited by Cory_Di at 14-Jan-2005 13:25[/font]

Thank you very much Cory_Di for taking the time to reply. I did read, and have re-read the links that Babelfish suggested. All great info.

I do have the Nutrafin Master Test Kit and I just tested the "tank of death" and I had; Ph of 7.6, Ammonia at <0.6 mg/L but the Nitrite level was at 1.6 mg/L. That can't be good. I did do one 15% water change 6 days ago but did not test since. The numbers then were: Ph: 7.6, Ammonia: 1.2, Nitrite: no trace, Gh: 140 and Kh: >80. I do not have a heater and the water temp sits around 72-74*.

I will follow the advice as offered and replace the water but is it okay to cycle with fish under these past circumstances?

Thanks.

Some hobbyists prefer to drain the tank, soak the gravel in a 50-50 solution of Clorox for ten minutes and rinse well...

Contrary to what some hobbyists believe, a tank standing with water containing no fish for a week, is not a guarantee that ich will not reappear.

Some also claim that the ich parasite somehow embeds itself in the gills of fish, goes dormant, and reappears similar to a vampire arising at night from his coffin.

If that's the case any newly purchased trop is suspect and must be isolated in a holding tank for two weeks before placing in the main tank.
----
One of Diane's favorite fish, "Tanichthys albonubes", the White Cloud Mountain Fish originally from White Cloud Mountain, near Canton, China, may be a good choice for you since it eats just about anything, can tolerate temps anywhere from 40 to 90 degrees and is an egg-scatterer breeding at 68-75 degrees.

The fish is raised commercially so it should be available.

--garyroland.



Last edited by garyroland at 14-Jan-2005 16:18

I myself would be uneasy leaving a previously ich infested tank for only a week. If I really couldn't empty it or had to reuse the gravel and could not boil or bake it, I would crank the heat up to 90 or so for two weeks to make sure all have hatched and found no fish. They must find a host quickly or they die. With not fish two weeks of high temp, that should do it.

When I use Chlorine Bleach (no scent or dyes), I always follow up with several rinses, overdosing dechlorinator. Then I let air dry a few days. Maybe the gravel could be treated, then spread out on the floor.

No matter what way you go, let the tank water age a good week with the filter running. Its always less shocking than water which has not aged. Gary brought up a good point that white clouds are widely available. I have never not seen them. But, many chain stores sell them so young, their striking colors aren't as vivid as you see in my pick. It took six months for some of mine to get there and they get nothing but the best in fresh foods, replaced every 60 days for optimal coloring.

I didn't say it was widely available, just that the fish was raised commercially and should be available.

It's up to the store to order what they think will sell and some stores will order them in by request.

--garyroland.

Ok, I see your point, but at least in Southeast Michigan, I've never not seen them loaded up in fish stores and chain stores. Its right up there with guppies in how often I see White Clouds.

There is a gold variety too that is just as good, if not prettier.