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Alright, well I have a 4ft tank with 16 discus in it. Many differnt sizes. I have a little discus about 2inches and he is very thin, dark eyes, dark colours and does not eat. He seems to try and peck at the food but gets none in his mouth. When he does get some, he spits it back out. Whats the reason for this? Hes not very shy, hes out the fron of the tank all the time.<br><br><br>Just recently, I have a white diamond discus about the same size becoming very shy. Just 2 days ago he was a very bossy fish, chasing a fair few of them around the tank. Now he is starting to hide back in the plants. Whats the deal? I fed them today, and noticed that this white diamond doesn't seem to want to eat now, he had a couple of pecks at the food, but none successfully entered his mouth.<br><br>Nitrite and Amonia are normal. I do water changes every week. Little help please.<br><br>Thanks

Hey Ex

Sorry no one has gotten to your post sooner.

How long have you had these discus? Any new fish added to the tank?

The first thing we would look at with any change in behavior or physical appearance would be the environment. You've stated that your ammonia and nitrite are "normal" and I am assuming that this means they read zero. Even 0.25 or less can be an issue. If your test kits are less than a year old, they are still good, otherwise they are suspect.

Let's have a look at the nitrate levels. Nitrate wants to be low, in particular for discus. Many people change the water daily or several times weekly for optimal health, but not all from what I read. And, I do not keep discus so I can only pass along what I've read.

The next thing I'd be interested in, if I were keeping discus is the pH and kH.

Make a list of what you add to the tank from conditioners to fertilizers, if the tank is planted.

When you do water changes, how much do you change?

What do they eat as a primary diet and what do you feed as supplemental? Any live food? If so, where do you get it or do you grow it yourself?

Are the fish looking emaciated/starved at all?

If the environment is fine, then its possible the fish have worms, or some other internal illness. Make sure you don't see them flashing/scratching, breathing heavily, and so on.

I'm going to PM someone here who keeps discus to see if he will get involved in this thread to help you out. In the meanwhile, answer the questions.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 18-Feb-2005 17:05

Ex,

I am very sorry that I did not notice your post.

We can try a couple of things to help your little guys out. Little discus are like kids, everything makes them sick! Let's try these items for your tank:
1. Increase your water temperature to 88F to speed up their metabolism,
2. Since you change water once per week, increase your water changes to 25% per day,

If you have a hospital tank of 10 gallons or more, I would like you to put the small dark discus in the hospital tank. Bump the temperature to 90F and add a tablespoon of water softener salt. You didn't mention if he was itching himself or scratching so I don't want to recommend a med.

Do 25% daily water changes on the hospital tank. If your LFS has black worms, buy a portion and give him two or three blackworms to see if he will eat.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

I don't really know the personalities of discuses that well, but are the sick ones just starring into space. In which I mean are they kind of swimming in one spot? Do they look like they are lost in though by a fixed stare and little eye movement reaction to what is happening in their environment?

Discus show stress by darkening their colors, showing stress bars, dashing and hiding. These signs can indicate problems in their environment or disease. Any diseased animal will become listless and stop eating. Unfortunately, stressed discus will do the same...

Ex, what do the feces lok like for your little one? Are they white and stringy?

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Hi guys!

Thanks for all replying. I didn't notice that you did till today (obviously).

I now have 3 sick fish.

1st fish:

1 very small blue diamond. I bought two of these and 1 of them got sick almost straight away. I returned him and kept the other one. 1 month later the second blue diamond has began to do the same thing. Very thin, dark eyes and dark colours. When he eats, he spits it out. Sometimes he misses the food. He is the smallest fish in the tank. I have had him for about 5 months, and has been unwell for about 1.5months.

2nd fish:

Small white diamond. I have had this fish for about 2 months.He isn'tisn'tunder weight. What I have noticed is that he doesn't seem to be eating, and when he does, he spits out the food. He still is very bossy, even chasing around the larger fish when they move in to his corner. Nothing seems to be wrong with him visually, hes just not eating. I have also noticed that he has white, clear poop.

3rd fish:
I bought this fish along with 2 other fish. We have had this fish for 8 months. Under weight and not eating. Dark colours. Haven't seen what the poop looks like.


Water changes and temp:
I usually do a 75% water change weekly, and clean the filters monthly. For the last 3 days I have been doing 50% water changes daily to try and get these guys fixed up. The temp is generally 28deg, but as of late it has been 32deg.

ph

Plants:
The tank is planted, but I have only began adding fertilizer to the tank in the last 2 weeks. These fish have been sick before adding fertilizer.

Food:

I feed the Discus "ColourBits Tropical Granules". Once a week I will drop blood worms in the tank. We got the frozen worms from a feed barn.

Visual on all fish:

Every fish other then these 3 are live and healthy. Ill add some pictures. I have noticed a couple of fish darting along a couple of leaves. Only seen this once though.

Ok, what I have done now with the fish is put the 3 of them in a seperate bucket away from the rest of my stock. The bucket is only 20L. I added a table spoon of salt to it and got bubbles running in it and a heater bumping it up to 32 - 33deg. I only have moved them in today before I read all this. I was planning to do 50% water changes every day. I don't really know what else to do without knowing what exactly is wrong with the fish.

I hope this helps you guys with helping me out.

Thanks again!

I have some pictures before.


Picture of all fish:
http://www.ausimages.com/view/2005-02-20/DSCF4518.JPG
Picture of close up well ones:
http://www.ausimages.com/view/2005-02-20/DSCF4519.JPG
Picture of 3 sick fish in hospital bucket:
http://www.ausimages.com/view/2005-02-20/DSCF4521.JPG

based on the symptoms listed I'd say there is a very good chance your discus are suffering from an intestinal flagellate infection, which is very common with them. Here is a quote from an interview with Mr. Dieter Untergasser:

A - For the omnipresent intestinal flagellates the best medicine is the Metronidazole. However it's important to keep in mind that it helps the fish to react, but doesn't cure the intestinal flagellate completely.

Treatment for three days adding to the water 1,5 gr. of metronidazole for 100 liters of aquarium water, increasing the temperature by 3-4°C ( about 5° F ). At the end of treatment, do a partial change of water (30%), add fresh activated charcoal in the filter and readjusted the temperature to the normal range. It 's necessary to repeat the treatment because the product is not able to kill all flagellates.. It must be the metabolism of the fish to react and help it to get rid of these annoying guests. It is necessary to vary the feeding as much as possible during this period. If we give them beefheart, the flagellates will multiply more and more quickly. It's better to prefer pulp of fish, shrimps, granulated foods, larvas of Chironomus and frozen glass-worms.

[link=http://www.aquaworldnet.com/awmag/unteren.htm]http://www.aquaworldnet.com/awmag/unteren.htm" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link]

I suggest you read the rest of the article, it is fairly interesting and informative.

Symptoms of flagellate infection include exactly what you have mentioned: darkening in colour, timid behaviour, loss of appetite, timid behaviour, wasting and white transparent poop.

The fact that the symptoms are spreading despite your greater attention to care would also indicate something infectious rather than environmental. I suggest the treatment program listed above. Metronidazole should be available in your local pet store but it can also be purchased from a vet or online. You can buy it here:

[link=http://petsupplies4less.com/sbsite.php?&item=001TLZOL-100]http://petsupplies4less.com/sbsite.php?&item=001TLZOL-100" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link]

[link=http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=28213;category_id=3463]http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=28213;category_id=3463" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link]

I would probably follow the directions for dosage based on what is written on the medication bottle rather than the information from the article above just because you can never really be sure that fish medications are all consistent.

Hope that helps. I have treated flagellates using metro before but unfortunately I am not a discus keeper. Metronidazole is supposed to be safe for all fish and I have seen it mentioned on many discus information sites as being safe, I double checked that before I recommended it. I'm sure someone who keeps discus will be able to post more information if needed.

Ok, fantastic. Thanks for your help. 3 of my fish being sick, does this mean the ones still in the primary chance could have a intestinal flagellate infection? Even after I have removed the sick fish?

Ex,

Thanks for the detailed response Miss Moppet has a very good diagnosis. I would treat the entire tank as it is likely that all of the fish have the parasite.

Please note that small fish are like children. Things that barely affect adults may have a catastrophic effect on small fish and their undeveloped immune systems!

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Thanks for your help everyone. Also, someone at SimplyDiscus was saying that just water changes would fix them up? This true? Source - http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41828

At this point I would not advise water changes alone since you already have 3 fish showing symptoms of intestinal flagellates. Water changes are good to a point because they will reduce stress on the fish and help them fight the flagellates on their own, but since you have an outbreak of infection in the tank, I really think it would be a good idea to go ahead with treatment with metro. Here's a link from the site you mentioned:

[link=http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/metronidazole.shtml]http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/metronidazole.shtml" style="COLOR: #ffffff[/link]

elsewhere on that same site, metronidazole is listed as the treatment of choice for intestinal flagellates in discus, I didn't find anything else that suggested water changes alone.

Of course you will want to perform a lot of water changes to keep water quality pristine during treatment with medication, but I wouldn't rely on them with nothing else.

Hmmm,

Well I did 3 days of treatment on the dosage rates supplied from you guys and there doesn't seem to be any improvment.

I actually moved the fish back into the main tank to see if they would start eating. Feeding them their original food from last time they still won't eat. So I went down to the local Aquarium and bought some bloodworms. They have no trouble eating them. However, the little white diamond still has clear poop.

Advice?

Anyone?

Three days may really not be enough to eliminate the flagellates. I would continue/repeat treatment with metronidazole as long as the fish aren't showing any adverse reaction to it.

I would also like to restate Bob's suggestion to treat the whole tank. It will be a bit pricier but it is the only sure way of eliminating the flagellate parasites completely.

After feeding bloodworm, a healthy fish should have a reddish tint to its waste. The fact that the little diamond's poop is still transparent and whitish after a feeding of bloodworm is further evidence of flagellate parasite infection, IMO. Fish infected with these parasites will often have appetite issues as well, and sick discus are known for being picky eaters when they're feeling a bit sick in general.

If bloodworm is all they will eat, by all means continue to feed it while you treat them. Protein and a good healthy supply of nutrients are very important in helping them become healthy again. Other foods you may want to try are brine shrimp and daphnia, which are a bit more appetizing than pellets for sick fish.

Garlic is a very good appetite stimulant that can be used to get sickly fish to eat. I was skeptical of this myself but after mixing some fresh garlic juice in with my regular fish food for the first time, I was a believer! All you do is crush a clove of fresh garlic and mash it into a cheese cloth or fine sieve over the food to get the juices on it. If you're lazy you can cut the surface of the garlic clove and rub it over the food. Sounds a bit loopy but it really works, and I have found it especially helpful in treating fish with parasites. Nutrition shouldn't be a problem if they are taking bloodworm but if you're concerned there are vitamin additives you can buy at a fish store that can be added as a supplement to the discus diet.

So to recap: Keep the discus in the main tank and continue metronidazole treatment as long as they aren't showing adverse effects from it, keep the water qulaity pristine as always and remove any activated carbon from the filter. As long as the fish are taking it well you can continue treatment for up to 2 weeks. Continue to feed the bloodworm and try the garlic to see if you can entice them to eat anything else. HTH

Last edited by Miss Moppet at 04-Mar-2005 00:11