FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Oh yes.... I placed the container without a lid in side a large net and just let it dissolve. The kids can't get to it at all.

Patty

Doing much better today, praise God!!

Thanks everyone!!

Patty

Glad they're doing better. As long as they are tolerating it, keep the salt at that level. When you do your water change, figure rougly how many gallons you took out and you'll know how many Tbsp to put back in at 1 Tbsp/gal.

[font color="#000080"]THANK YOU SOOOO VERY MUCH for sticking with me throughout this ordeal. GROUP HUG! LOL I cannot tell you how comforting it was for me to find emails here, even if you did not have much to offer, it made me feel less alone and confused (helpless?). When you care about your goldfish as much as we do, ordinary people simply don't understand ("...they're ONLY fish!!"]:|]:|

Every goldie is doing much better They eat plenty and look soooo good. I guess I'll wait until next week to re-plant the tank, but this time I will have an experienced friend along.

Again, thank you ALL so much for all your help and support. After watching the daily news, people like yourselves give me back my confidence in humans as a caring race.

Patty [/font]

No problem Patty - so the salt helped?

Now you know of one treatment method. I find the salt picks them up when something isn't right. Its a good first step versus antibiotics and other chemicals.

I would make a suggestion for you before you put the plants back into the tank. Sterilize. There are many methods. Bleaching is harsh and some won't tolerate it.

However, a much milder way to disinfect them is two steps:

1) Ordinary kitchen alum. If it can kill snails and snail eggs, it likely is harmful to parasites. Just dissolve 1 Tbsp per gallon in a bucket of room temp, dechlorinated water and let it soak overnight. It won't harm them. Rinse several times very well and gently with water from the tap that is room temp. I just put my dechlorinator in as I'm filling the bucket.

2) Potassium Permangenate. This is easily available in diluted form in Jungle's Clear Water. You can buy it at most pet stores. Do not put it in the tank. Rather, fill a bucket of water and add dechlorinator. Let is sit overnight. The next morning, add as much Jungle Clear Water as it takes to make the water a dark purple. Add plants and soak for only 15 minutes. Then rinse, rinse, rinse using the conditioner each time you fill the bucket. Potassium Permangenate is a good antibacterial and plants are tolerant of this short bath. It is also effective against some parasites.

The reason I have you fill a bucket the night before with dechlorinator is that sometimes the conditioner, if used right before the potassium permangenate, neutralizes it, turning it brown. Once potassium permangenate is brown it is not useful - dump it and start over.

Hope this helps.

Diane

You're right, Diane...

The Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master Test Kit now has nitrate tests included and so do some of the other kits.

My master kit precedes the newer ones and does not have the test.

--garyroland.

Nobody??? C'mon... somebody's gotta know....!!

Blackmoors sitting on the bottom of the tank really doesn't warrant any kind of meds, including salt...

Unless the fish shows some positive signs of disease, medication is just a waste of time.

--garyroland.

Golds, like other fish, will show outward signs of disease...

Golds that eat and maintain balance are generally considered healthy.

I've kept a few Golds, some that grew to tremendous size and usually they are in constant motion, so I realize your concern.

But, until such a time when your Moor shows more definite signs of being sick, it's a waiting game. Dosing meds for reasons unknown can be a dangerous habit.

--garyroland.

HI Patty

How's the black moor eating and pooping? I'm thinking he may have a case of swimbladder disorder if he is spending a lot of time on the gravel. Does it have any problem at all lifting itself from the gravel at will, like at feeding time? Goldies with SBD can either float or have difficulty lifting or righting themselves.

Prazi-Pro is definitely an option, but will only work if there are intestinal worms. I would try alternatives first because so often, it is diet related. Goldies with their scrunched up backs have compressed organs which hit against the swimbladder, especially if they get stopped up.

You can get Prazi-Pro online and I would stick with that one or any other brand that is just straight powder. With Prazi-Pro, you mix a specified amount per gallon with a small amount of tank water to make slurry then add it.

I would fast the tank for a day and see if he gets up. If he does, try to get some Seaweed Selects Algae sheets. They are better than feeding deshelled peas to goldfish with swimbladder disorder. I have others in another forum trying it with success now that it pretty much keeps one of my goldies with SBD under full control. The algae soaks in alot of water and becomes gel like, pulling all that extra fluid into the gut, along with fiber. You just rip a piece off and put it on a veggie clip. For two goldies I use about a 2x3 inch piece and I feed it with their pellets or other foods, otherwise, Yoshi floats if I try to give later and it takes twice as much. I've tried peas, romaine, oranges and nothing worked. I presoaked the food, tried frozen foods, soaked freeze-dried, you name it. Now I can feed him anything at all, including the freeze-dried krill they love so much, provided the algae sheet is in there when they are done. It pushes things through.

If you can't get the algae right away and must buy online like I do, then you can boil some brown rice (not wild, just simple brown). Try feeding that after fasting and boil without butter or oil.

Here's where I get my algae and they are pretty much all the same - 100% marine macroalgae. A marine biologist suggested I try it for SBD since he fed it to their goldfish and it works out great.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=11462&N=2004+6100

Let us know how he does

Diane




Last edited by Cory_Di at 16-Jan-2005 17:39

"She appears to be eating just fine and does swim when I approach the tank (she thinks I'm going to feed everybody)."...

The poster did not report whether the fish can swim to the top or near the top of the tank.

--garyroland.

I just had a thought about my little "Peaches". She was one of three I had purchased that died a few months after I got her. Besides being pummeled for hours daily by two males trying to get eggs out of her (which they did), she had deformaties of the mouth which I hadn't noticed until I got her home. I also did not know that she had a severe swim bladder disorder.

I noticed that she began to tire easily and would rest on the gravel. She would rise to greet me, but then it became apparent by her breathing that something was wrong. I transferred her to a q-tine tank. I had medicated feed and she was too weak to get it herself. Oddly enough she actually allowed me to lift her and put her face to the food where she sucked it in and ate it. But she passed a few days later. It was evident that she had hemorrhaged - either from infection or injury.

I would watch closely and observe breathing rate. Compare to others in the tank. There is a medicated food available at Petsmart called Jungle Anti-Bacteria medicated food. If you sense she is truly ill, I'd lean on the side of of giving her the medicated food. If you can isolate it is even better as you can target it to that fish. If there are parasites, then it could cause infection and the infection would need to be addressed first.

I'd have the medicated food on hand and wait and see. They also make a second medicated food that includes Praziquantel. I don't know if they can be fed concurrently, but Jungle Labs will answer your questions about the product if you use "Contact the Lab" at:

[link=http://www.junglelabs.com]http://www.junglelabs.com" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

The medicated food is suppose to be more widely available, outside of Petsmart by the end of January or early February, but now you can only get it at Petsmart.

[link=http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441806679&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030134&bmUID=1105929376880]http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441806679&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030134&bmUID=1105929376880" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

[link=http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441806678&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030134&bmUID=1105929401694]http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441806678&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030134&bmUID=1105929401694" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

Hope this helps

Diane

I have a pretty strong opinion of high nitrates, based in part on what I've read from experts like Dr. Erik Johnson (Book, Fancy Goldfish), Dr. Edward J. Noga (Book, Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment, among others. Some of what Doc Johnson has to say is available on the web. I'll put the link to that below.

My opinion is also based on experience with my Goldfish. I got them from a small, family owned, lfs. There were 4 to a 10 gallon tank that the owner admitted, had seen water changes only monthly. When I got my 3 home for the 36 gallon, I tested the bag water, which was off the chart before the time was up. That means it was probably in excess of 200 ppm. When I got the fish in my uncycled tank (I used BioSpira with no appreciable spikes), and turned the light on, I could see what looked like angry, varicose veins in the tail fins of all fish. One also had an injury to the tail, in which a square notch had been ripped out (I figured it was the intake that caught it).

The tank cycled in about 3-4 days with biospira, producing only 0.25 ammonia on day two, then disappearing by evening. At the end of day 4, I had a small amount of nitrate that was increasing and it finally hit about 10ppm after 10 days. During this time, I watched as the angry, red streaks disappeared. The pH was not off that much between the bag water and my water, surprisingly so it wasn't that. Also, the notch in the fin quickly developed black all around it and in the surrounding area. I later learned that injuries have a tendency to turn black when fish are moved to improved water quality - a good sign of healing (also from the Fancy Goldfish book).

The 36 gallon was never meant to be permanent. It now houses one oranda and one Ryukin that are both about 3.5 inches. I have found that the nitrates rise very quickly in this tank, with only once daily feedings and occassional twice daily feedings. I gravel vac the entire tank weekly to pull up the Seaweed Selects remnants and poop. With the Emporer 280 biowheel, there is no impact on the good bacteria doing the whole tank.

Every now and then, when I skip on water changes and they go longer than 7 days, the nitrates creep up. In fact, I was going about every 10 days and they crept up to about 100 on me without realizing. I knew the moment I saw the red streaks in their fins. Within 2-3 weeks of getting it back down under 40ppm, the redness goes away. I've seen this happen several times now, enough to be convinced, it is not healthy.

High nitrates are now considered to contribute to poor health. We know that it does dilate blood vessels and can lead to symptoms that mimic hemorrhagic septicemia. They are also thought to lower immunity and resistance. 40ppm or less is the best (and I think some say 60ppm). But I like to keep it even lower than that. That means, I'm now doing two water changes weekly of about 25% to keep it down.

I will buy a tank big enough to allow me to let it go longer between water changes. I'm thinking a 90 or 125 for those two, and I just may add a black moor if I go with the 125.

Note Doc Johnson's final statement, in bold at the end of the article.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_results.php?article_id=81&category=12&search_term=nitrate

Last edited by Cory_Di at 17-Jan-2005 11:56

Last edited by Cory_Di at 17-Jan-2005 11:59

Many master test kits no longer come with Nitrate tests...

New studies printed in Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine last year have shown that nitrates are not the villains hobbyist's once thought they were.

The article mentioned 100ppm of nitrates in salt or fresh water tanks are not a threat, although I personally would not totally agree.

In a well balanced large tank, I repeat, "large" tank, the threat of extreme levels of nitrates is practically zero, even with widely-spaced water changes.

Certain species of fancy Goldfish may be more sensitive to high nitrates than others so the hobbyist should always test the tank now and then.

--garyroland.

Gary, I have a feeling that AP has changed theirs recently. I don't know if you have ever bought one of theirs in the past or ever just looked at it. I recall it having Ammonia, Nitrite, pH (Normal Range), pH High Range, gH and kH. You had to buy the nitrate kit separate.

Now I look at it online and note that it now contains the nitrate kit and no gH/kH. I don't know if this is a new version or an alternate version I just hadn't noticed before.

Look at the paragraph at the top of this page, not the list for individual kits.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4454&inm=1&N=2004+113074+113565





Last edited by Cory_Di at 17-Jan-2005 18:04

HI EVERYONE! Gotta pick your brains...!

DeeDee is my huge blackmoore (about 10 inches) who is turning orange. She is almost done changing colors but I've noticed for a while now she sits on the gravel like a hen keeping her eggs warm. She appears to be eating just fine and does swim when I approach the tank (she thinks I'm going to feed everybody). Her fins are up and look quite healthy. The water parameters are fine too. This is my 90 gallon tank (it was set up about 3 years ago). The other fish look normal, healthy and happy gravel picking monsters. She is about 3 years old I suppose....? (maybe more like 2-1/2). I added salt , just in case.... She doesn't really appear sick, except for just being rather sedentary..... Upon researching the web I thought I could treat with Prazi (flukes and bacterial infections). Does anybody know much about this powder? What about dosage?? The label mentions dosage for 1,000 gallons!! My goldies are in a 90 gallon tank, not a pond - I don't want to risk overdosing...

Thanks for any and all of your help!

Patty

I didn't think it was my imagination, but just checking. I too bought an earlier version, thats why this one seemed different.

[font color="#000080"]Ok... the results are in: nitrates at about 20!! ta-dah!!! I still have not added the Prazi (mainly because I want to give the Medi-Koi a fighting chance before I add more stuff to the water...). I have not noticed any improvement yet, but no further deterioration either. I guess I'll wait another week and re-assess each day.

Patty [/font]

Last edited by PattyPedd at 19-Jan-2005 11:33

[font color="#000080"] Hi guys. Ok, somebody suggested I increase aeriation so I figured it couldn't hurt.... I added one more line. They seem a bit better, or maybe it's just my wishful thinking?? I am still feeding them with Medi-Koi. So far so good, but DeeDee still sits on the bottom for long periods of time. Fins still look good. I noticed that the triplets I purchased about a couple of months ago, two are males (developing tubercules). I look forward to seeing them spawn! Has anybody tried Medi-Koi??

Patty [/font]

I tried it early on when I got Yoshi to make sure his SBD wasn't related to an infection. Sure made the fish poop good . In his case, it did not help him, but I wanted to try since non of the diet related stuff was working. I also then tried Prazi-Pro thinking it may have been intestinal worms. That did not do it either. I later discovered the magic of dried seaweed sheets and have been feeding them Seaweed Selects (2x2 sheet), with each feeding (once daily). So, I give them their pellets, or flakes, or some freeze dried food like krill, and the algae at the same time. That did the trick.

[font color="#000080"]I still have not seen much change in behavior. Or, I should say, now everybody goes through what I am calling "a quiet period." They just gather in a corner and sit there. When I feed them they seem fine. The finnage looks fine. Their colors are fine. They eat and poop normally. Don't know what else to do.

I do have a small white plastic bottle with Prazi. It says to dissolve all of the powder in some water (mixing vigorously) and THEN pour the entire content to 1,000 gallons of water (pond). I have a 90 gallon tank so...?? What would the dosage be??

Help....
Patty [/font]

I would not medicate.

Does that stuff happen to mention the active ingredients? Does it really say PraziQuantine? If so, there is probably more than Praziquantel in it and I would want to know what is in it. If they are eating and pooping and the feces are not long, white and stringy, you really have no reason to assume that there are intestinal parasites. Its not only a waste of meds, but unnecessary.

Who is congregating in a corner? I thought this was about a black moor?

Check parameters again to make sure you haven't any ammonia or something.

The fish could merely be sleeping. Mine go through periods in the day when that's all they do, sit in a corner.

Give us a complete stock list again for this tank, in list form so we can see it easily.

[font color="#000080"]Ok. I have 6 large (5-8 inch) goldies in there; it's a 90 gallon tank. My female started with the sitting on the gravel business. I treated with some salt the first week. No changes. I added another line to increase aeriation, just in case. I started feeding Medi-Koi in case it was a bacterial or fungal infection. I see more fish sitting on the gravel now... not just that one female. They do seem healthy, otherwise. I will check water parameters tomorrow morning (kind of late now - too dark to tell colors accurately).

Thanks a million for sticking with me on this!

Patty***[/font]

Last edited by PattyPedd at 23-Jan-2005 16:15

I just checked my book, Fancy Goldfish by Dr. Erik Johnson and Richard Hesse. Here is what they say:

SITTING ON BOTTOM
Causes
Goldfish that rest on the bottom of the tank can be divided into two categories, each requiaring different treatement. The first category includes fish that have to struggle to swim into the mid-water or to the surface. They have a swim bladder problem, sometimes due to bacterial infection and sometimes due to defects in the swim bladder (necropsies show that some of these fish have water in the air sac instead of air).

The second category is fish that swim fine when disturbed. Thesse fish usually carry massive fluke or costia burden and are being weakened by the parasites. They rest on the bottom which further assists the parasites in proliferating on the skin and gills, and the fish eventually dies.

Electrocution can cause this symptom as well.

Solutions
Check for bacterial infection and parasites and treat as necessary. Also check for electrical current in your system.

[hr width='40%']

Now, that having been said, I would think there would be more such as grey slimey areas, especially about the head and gill covers if it were Costia (according to the book). Do the gills move rapidly?

[hr width='40%']
While praziquantel is good for flukes, it is not effective for Costia. The book goes on to talk about a 0.3% salt solution as a cure, but also recognizes that there is a salt resistant strain going about right now that even 0.6% can't kill off. In such a case, they recommend formalin. Formalin can be rough on the fish as it is a gas. The book also mentions that formalin can cause redness in goldies. I guess I'd want to be pretty confident the fish needed formalin before dosing it. They recommend removing plants in such cases as they will die off from it. Put them in a bucket.

If all you have are goldfish in the tank and no scaleless fish, then you may want to consider the 0.3% salt solution, which is 1 Tbsp/gal. This is alot and it must be done over time. The book recommends dosing one third at a time, predissolved, over 24 hours to gradually raise salinity. Another way to do this is to place the total amount of salt required into a disposable glad container with holes poked into it and sunk. It will take days to dissolve - like 3 or 4. I personally like this approach better. The book goes on to say that once fish show they are receptive to the 0.3% salt you can attempt to up it by another 0.3% to make the 0.6%. But, you must do this when you can be with the fish - like a weekend, in case they begin to stress, at which time you would do a water change to dilute it (same temp). The book recommends starting with a hefty water change at the outset so that you don't have to do one while the salt is in the tank.

I believe you may see these fish perk up just from the salt alone. Lets see if that does anything. At least it is not a chemical. Make sure you use a good aquarium salt like Doc Wellfish. Don't use the second method of dissolving salt that I mentioned unless you have the rock type aquarium salt, which is what Doc Wellfish is. Jungle sells a quick dissolving flake and that would be too rapid. That would need to be predissolved and dribbled in over time.

Let us know how that works.

Definitely get those parameter readings before doing anything with salt. The answer may lie there. That is alot of body mass for a 90 gallon tank. Hopefully, the filter is holding up.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 23-Jan-2005 17:42

[font color="#000080"]Thanks!! Ok, after reading your last email I am carefully assessing still. I really don't think there's an infection going on, because the gills and fins look supple and whole. She simply looks healthy! My water parameters are fine too. So far, I have only treated with salt and I fed them Medi-Koi for 10 days. She looks better (as far as not sitting all the time). I have added life plants to my aquarium (yesterday, actually). Today, as I was lurking, ehem.... I mean stalking, ...darn! ... I mean just walking by the tank and lo and behold I kind of saw like something weird so I did a double take..... THERE WAS LIKE AN EXPLOSION OF EGGS!! They must have just had them because it was like an explosion of eggs! They were everywhere!!! I hope they get eaten quick because I just don't have more room for babies! My husband will kill me if I get yet another tank! At any rate, I wonder if she was just laden with eggs....???

Patty***[/font]

PattyPedd attached this image:

[font color="#000080"] Ok, here's a few more pics of the "after" courship ritual. I think she's trying really hard to hide from the guys. Sorry, did not mean to take the pics with her butt up in the air, but that's just the way she was. She does look pretty round, doesn't she??

Patty*** [/font]

PattyPedd attached this image:

[font color="#000080"]One more shot.

My goodness... I'll try to get better pics. I just realized how bad these look...!!

Patty***[/font]

PattyPedd attached this image: