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Di, good to know you keep your tank at 74-ish; I'm going to slowly move mine down to that, trusting the thermometer rather than the heater's dial. Can I ask how many of each type of fish you keep in your 20 gal? I was thinking of getting some otos, but I wasn't sure if I'd be able to fit a few in along with the pandas. Of course, now that I'm down to 5 pandas, I will have more room than I did with 8 ... sigh.

Also good to have your summary of the possible med options; thank you. I'm going to check out my local (small) pet store tomorrow to see what they sell. If they don't have anything that looks helpful, I'll have to try to run up to the good FS on Friday while my 3 year old is in preschool. In the meantime, I'll just keep doing the good vacs and water changes, and keep my fingers crossed!

I don't know what to think about the filtration/oxygen issue. The only fish in the whole tank that was going up for extra air was the sick one. Certainly it could be that a lack of air was making him sick, but isn't it also likely that he is only having a hard time breathing because he's sick from something else? That said, I'm going to take a look at the Whisper 10i to see how big they are, etc. I was looking at the back of my tank today, and I'm not sure where I would hang it since there isn't a 2nd cut-out in the hood for another filter. But if you say it hangs inside, it might work.

Fortunately, though, my Whisper 20 is the new kind with a separate bio-filter insert, so I don't have to get rid of all my good bacteria when I change the other part. But so far, I haven't changed it ... I've just been rinsing it out in the old tank water when I do water changes, so there shouldn't have been anything that caused a mini-cycle.

OK, off to go pull out the driftwood and vacuum under it! I'm expecting lots of gunk, LOL.

Kathy

Oh nuts! You must have snagged an older model. The newer ones have a piece of foam that goes into a holder and slips in separately. Darn! Well, you can continue to rinse it and put it back, empty it of its contents and refill.

I wouldn't want to use it as a primary filter either, since this particular model has no separate bio-filter. The instructions say to change the cartridge every month, but that seems crazy to me, since wouldn't you just force a new cycle if all your bacteria was in there? (Assuming this was your only filter -- luckily, my Whisper 20 has a separate piece of foam that stays in, even when you change out the cartridge.)

I know I've read about people adding something to this type of filter to keep the bacteria in place when they have to change the cartridge. What exactly should I be looking for? Just some type of floss to bunch up and stick in the bottom of the filter? Or would it have to be something more vertical that the water would actively flow through?

Would something as simple as adding a handful of gravel inside the bag work, simply transfering that same gravel from old bag to new bag each time?

Kathy

Otos are really good for any tank, especially if there are plants as they can keep the leaves clean without destruction.

Your fish are probably just elated with all of the extra oxygen flowing through the tank too now. .

Nice little filter isn't it? I wouldn't want to use that style exclusively.

One thing I will suggest is to watch the outflow. As you see it slowing down, take the bag out and rinse it well and replace, using a shot of conditioner. I rinse mine in sink water and it doesn't really destroy bacteria that I can tell. I just make sure it is room temp. A few seconds won't hurt anything.

Di, I think they've changed the way they name them (or else WalMart sells something different from other sources), because the 20i seems to now be called the 10-20i. The GPH is 120, which I believe is what you quoted the 20i at. Coupled with the 105 GPH that the Whisper 20 does, I think the two together should get me over 200, which is what I was shooting for.

I decided not to put the fake driftwood back in because it's too heavy to move easily and I want to be able to keep doing these deep vacs. I'm going to look for something else -- and per your advice, something either solid or hollow enough to allow water flow. Thanks for the link ... yes, something like that would be great. I'm also going to think more about live plants, now that I have extra room on the bottom.

Cali, thanks for the info on panda liking fast currents! The harlequins seem to be in absolute heaven, too. I don't think they've stopped playing in the new current all evening. And you read my mind about it being good exercise -- that's just what I was postulating to my husband! Glad I was thinking about it right.

Thanks for all your help! I'm really hoping the crisis is over. And once things settle down, I'm going to go looking for otos.

Kathy

Well, sorry you lost the sickly one.

Glad you decided to add a filter, rather than replace. When you said Whisper 10-20i, which one was it the 10 or the 20 ? Are the bags the same size as your Whisper 20 or smaller?

You'll put the driftwood back in later, right? Scrub it down good if its going to sit out, just so it doesn't have gunk drying out on it.

Consider Welaby Wood (same as Mopani Wood). It sinks on its own without being weighed down. Just simmer it in a large pot for a good four hours and it will get the tannins out that discolor the water, while sterilizing it. If you have otos or other algae eaters, they will go nuts over what grows on it. I simply make a rut in the gravel and wherever I lay the wood, it creates and instant cave. I have two pieces stacked over a rut and the otos and cories hang out there. They are easy to pull out and put back in as I have pieces that are about 8-10 inches.

http://reptileharbor.vstore.ca/product_info.php/cPath/6/products_id/122

Last edited by Cory_Di at 05-Mar-2005 19:50

Ah yes, Panda current surfing ...

Pandas live in faast flowing waters in the wild, fed by periodic Andean meltwater runoff ... so not only do they like it cooler than many other "tropical" fish (22-23°C being their preferred maintenance range) but they are used to currents. When the fry hatch, they are carried downstream, and consequently have an instinct to swim upstream to return to their birthplace to spawn as adults. Juveniles will thus swim against *any* current in the aquarium, which means that if you put decent filters & powerheads in there, they'll swim against the currents from the filters and powerheads as if they were swimmng upstream in the wild. They'll even surf bubbles from an airstone, and if you watch closely, they'll try and swim down against the flow from the bubbles!

This is part of the "fitness régime" that prepares them for adulthood and spawning. If you have decent power filtration making currents, they'll swim against it, surfing the bubbles, and in the process fitten up for mating later on.

Even as adults, males in particular continue to surf powerhead currents and airstone bubbles, adding to the comedy antics. They'll also sit on broad-leaved plants in the current, swaying on the leaves for all the world like underwater budgies on swings ... and when they do it's SO funny to watch!

If you put Pandas in an aquarium with multiple current sources, they'll entertain you like mad!




Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Well, I am now the proud owner of a Whisper 10-20i filer, which now sits in the opposite corner as my regular Whisper 20! I also took the driftwood out of the tank and did another super-good vacuum job, which amounted to a 40% water change. And yes, lots of gunk came up!

Alas, the poor little panda that was suffering mightily gave up the fight yesterday afternoon, so I'm down to four. *But* the four who remain seem to be all right so far ... lots of activity with this latest water change and the new filter (and they don't have their driftwood cave to hide behind, so that might be encouraging them to venture out). I rearranged some of the plants to give them areas to hide, so I hope that will be enough to make them feel secure.

I am wondering about the increased flow in the tank, however -- pandas like flow, right? With the two filters on opposite sides of the tank, there seems to be a lot of it, and they definitely have noticed. They've been ... well, body surfing is the best term I can think of. Not where the waterfall comes up (like the Harlequins are doing) but down lower, where the up-flow seems to be dragging them almost sideways. They are swimming against the current, sometimes winning, sometimes getting pushed around, but they keep going back to it, so I'm hoping that's a sign they like it?

How do I know if there is too much flow? Will it exhaust them to always have it moving like that? I sprinkled a bit of food in and it's swirling in the water for a long time before it finally sinks to the ground, so hopefully they wil get enough to eat this way.

Thanks for all your help, you guys! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that these four pandas stay healthy and the crisis is over.

Kathy (off to find Cali's vacuum adventure story )

Just done a gravel vac on my Panda breeding aquarium. Which has one very awkward lunp of bogwood in it. Moving that for the gravel vac was an educational experience

I've put a thread in General Freshwater about tonight's gravel vac, which should be required reading for all prospective Panda keepers


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

The oxygen levels could be low with that filter AND, maybe there are low levels of ammonia or nitrite, just below the detection of your tester, but enough to irritate them.

The one going up for air alot, that is not a good sign. Either he has parasites or he has an infection driving him to do this. Quarantining a panda is almost a death sentence in itself, so it's kind of a watch and see. If you are getting low levels of nitrite and ammonia, any med in the water at all will compromise it.

If you should get a new filter all together, be sure to figure out a way to transfer the biofoam from the seeded filter or run it in tandem with the new filter. You will lose that primary bacterial colony and possibly drive up a mini-cycle.

If you like Whispers, you may want to consider the Whisper 40. I don't know that I would go internal for a sole filter. I still think you oughta just consider adding a Whisper 20i (internal). You'll be boosting, not replacing and as I said, I think you can share biobags between the two, making it easier for replacements.

Wow, Di, you're my hero. I had no idea the filtration rate on the Whisper 20 was so low. I'm definitely going to look into either getting an internal or replacing the whole thing with a better filter. Luckily, my husband will be home on vacation next week so I should be able to get out the store, even if the kids are around. Maybe I can even go tomorrow.

Sorry I didn't give an update yesterday; I was out of the house most of the day.

I haven't lost any more pandas, though I still don't think they are healthy. The little guy that seems to have it (whatever "it" is) the worst is hanging on, but he is still breathing hard and is back to going to the surface for extra gulps of air. One of the other four pandas seems to be enjoying the frequent water changes, and has been pretty active, but the other three hide almost constantly, not even coming out to eat (at least not while I was watching; the sinking wafer was gone in the morning, so hopefully they all got some).

I haven't taken out the driftwood yet, but I've decided I'm going to do that today. The hold-up was that the artificial "driftwood" is pretty heavy, and I got concerned that I wouldn't be able to move it without squashing the pandas. But I've decided that I'm just going to take it out completely for a few days, since I'm pretty sure it's going to take a few rounds with the gravel vac to really clean up under there. I hate to stress out the pandas any more than they already are, but they'll just have to start hiding under the plants as opposed to in their little cave. (It'll also help me keep a better eye on them to see if any more are showing symptoms of being sick.)

I have continued to see some flashing, but it's not constant so I'm going to hold off on meds for now. Given what you said about the filtration, could it really be as simple as getting a new/additional filter? In any case, I'm going to keep up with the daily 25% water changes and gravel vacs and continue to keep my fingers crossed!

Thank you so much for your help and support. I'll keep you posted!

Kathy

Last edited by kathyb91 at 04-Mar-2005 09:06

I found the filter I spoke of, and I know the gph of your Whisper 20. It is definitely far less than the number of gph you should have running on your 20 gallon.

There's always a debate, but generally speaking it should be a minimum of 10-15x the number of gallons on gph. So, a 20 gallon should have at least 200-250 gph.

Your Whisper 20 is only 105 gph. If we add the Whisper 10i, that will add 90 gph for a total of 195. Close enough!

Since the 20i provides 125 gph, you may even want to go that route. You should then be able to use the same biobags for both filters. This is the one I bought for the 10i and i like the fact that the bag is empty and you fill it. I chose to fill it with seeded gravel from the top surface of my 20 long. This put seeded media right in the filter flow of an unfiltered tank.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4204&N=2004+113067.

Here's what it looks like and you'll see why you don't need to worry about cutouts. It actually sits a little lower if you want it to and the only thing on the tank is that little hanger on the back. Very simple maintenance too - no impellers to mess with

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=12085&inm=1&N=2004+22768+2035



Last edited by Cory_Di at 03-Mar-2005 22:08

Yeah - I wish I could find the gph on a Whisper 20, but I couldn't find it published on the net, specifically for that filter. I think I'll make a post on it. The 10i will definitely help. I'm such a big fan of two filters rather than 1 big one. I came home from work one day and found an old Whisper all heated up and not moving water. The impeller wasn't dirty either. Something failed inside. I was so lucky to have a Penguin-Mini and a Sponge Filter running at the time. I don't know how many hours it wasn't working.


Well, Kathy - how much gunk came out

Is everybody ok?

Is the one that was going up alot, still going up frequently?

Any flashing? If so, how often? I personally would not do any parasite meds if the flashing is not frequent. I'd wait and see how the water changes help. If they continue, then by all means give them a shot.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 03-Mar-2005 09:53

Big water change plus decent flow from filter equals frisky Pandas. Mine will nod their heads in approval over that.

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Can I ask how many of each type of fish you keep in your 20 gal?

Well, I was using the surface area stocking rule. There are at least 3 versions of the 20 gallon and not all can be equally stocked due to surface area. My 20 long is 12 inches wide by 30 inches long. I don't know what the dimensions of a regular 20 are, but you multiply the length x width, then divide that number by 12. This is the total number of inches of adult fish you should put in your tank. You can overstock slightly, if you have adequate filtration to move the water for more oxygen and to convert toxins. Live plants also help, but that's a whole new realm. Mine was easy to determine as one of my numbers is 12. So, I can have 30 inches of fish in my tank. I happen to have more than that - I think about 33 or 36.

6 white clouds
6 rasboras
3 trilineatus cories
2 male guppies (1 fancy green cobra/1 small endlers sized)
2 otos (had 3, but one died mysteriously out of the blue a few months back)
4 adult habrosus cories (2 females at 3/4 inch; 2 males at 1/2 inch)

I'm going to take a look at the Whisper 10i to see how big they are, etc. I was looking at the back of my tank today, and I'm not sure where I would hang it since there isn't a 2nd cut-out in the hood for another filter. But if you say it hangs inside, it might work.

Ahh - but that is what is so sweet about the 10i and other internal filters by whisper. They hang inside and require no cutout. The cord may pull up on the canopy locally, but that's it. The clip lays flat on the tank side. It will come with separate foam, and a separate biobag. What is nice is that they don't pack the carbon in the bag, at least with the replacements. When I set mine up in the 10 gallon as a hospital tank for my habrosus (barbels eroded severely), it was an uncycled tank. I chucked the activated carbon and put a handful of surface gravel from my main tank into the biobag . Instant bacteria right in the water flow. On your tank, that is really not necessary. However, what I found is that the filter flow does not run well when the biobag is empty - it compresses together and reduces flow. If you are medicating the water and can't have carbon, stuff the bag with a handful of surface gravel. I had trouble getting the foam block to stay down at first, but I submerged and squeezed it and that finally did the trick. Now it sits right.

Sounds good about the gravel vac - let us know what you found when you gravel vac's under the wood *holds nose*. Like I said, I do this anywhere from every 6-8 weeks to just 4 times yearly.

Another thing that helps is if the gravel is not too thick. When there are no real plants, and no UGF, there is really no reason for the 2 inch layer. IMHO, it creates a breeding ground for planaria (little white worms you see mainly at night on the glass), bacteria, and hydrogen sulfide. I thinned mine out to one inch over a period of several weeks. I just kept taking a cup out here and there and respreading until it was where I wanted it. Just a thought.

I'll bet the pandas are playing more than ever with all the fresh water coming in. As far as they are concerned, a nice spring rain has fallen.

As long as you lower your temp no more than 1-1.5 daily, your fish won't know it. I'd shoot for 74-75 and hold there for a few days. There may be no need to go any lower.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Mar-2005 21:46

Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Mar-2005 21:49

I have a 20 gal tank with 9 harlequin rasboras and (what used to be) 8 panda cories. It's been cycled for about 2 months and I haven't had any problems up until now.

I've had the pandas for about 6 weeks and they've seemed happy and healthy until recently. Then last week, I found one dead, and today I've lost two more. The rest have been quieter than usual, and don't seem to be eating well. (The harlequins, in contrast, seem perfectly fine.)

I examined the dead ones when I pulled them out and I noticed what looks to be bloody streaks under/in their gills. (Or at least I assume it's the gills -- the streaks were below and behind the eye, just under where the black panda eye patch ends.) Is this some kind of injury? Disease?

Water tests fine: Ph 7.6 (no change), Ammo & Nitrite at Zero, Nitrate less than 10 ppm, temp is 78 F. EDITED TO ADD: I've been doing 20% water changes once/week with a gravel vac, so I think I've been keeping the bottom fairly clean. Also, my nitrates never have gone above 10 ppm.

Any ideas? Did I do something wrong?

Thanks for any help you can provide,

Kathy

Last edited by kathyb91 at 01-Mar-2005 15:45

Cali - I know. I do this on mine. Unless there are heavy roots in a tank, I think those deep vacs are the key to keeping healthy fish. Lousy bacteria can creep up real easy when there are no currents to take away all that poop.

Kathy, another question about the filter. Does the Whisper 20 have a piece of foam in a cartridge that is separate from your BioBag? Or, is the biobag the only thing that goes into the filter?

Unfortunately, the early models of Whisper did not have the foam block that went into the filter. This meant that when you changed your biobag, you threw out your primary bacterial colony that lived in the filter. Now, some people merely rinsed it and refilled with good carbon, but how many times can you do that.

If you have the older style, then I would ask if you just recently changed filter bags? If so, have you double checked your ammonia and nitrite to make sure you are not in a mini-cycle?

I'm trying to find out how many gph (gallons per hour) the Whisper 20 does. For a 20 gallon tank, you'd want close to 200 gph. I think the Whisper 20 is just under that. I have a Penguin 170 rated at 170 gph so I added a simple sponge filter for added filtration and water flow.

I'm thinking the Panda's may be struggling with the oxygen content in the tank, if the filter is a little less than what it should be. I could be wrong, but a Whisper 30 may have been better. However, there is a real plus to just adding another filter in that if one breaks down, you have some biofiltration going. I've been there and had filters fail, so it is a big plus to run two. As I mentioned, the 10i is really nice and would fit into a back corner. It hangs internally. I have one on a 10 gallon with some habrosus cories, along with a sponge filter.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Mar-2005 14:16

That's one of the reasons my aquaria get vac'ed twice a week ... I shift the bogwood and vac under it, and wow, the filth that appears ... and I do it twice a week, so imagine what it would be like if it was left for, say, a month???

Eek.



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I think you are probably fine with the 7.6. I live in an area where 7.8-8.0 is common and I see pandas in all the stores. None of them modify their pH. Lower is better, but 7.6 is not as bad as it could be.

Kathy, I think one thing that can help, is to increase filtration. Even tho they suggest that the filter is good for "up to 20 gallons", I generally go one step up, as do many others. If you had a planted tank, that number would probably be good.

You might want to consider getting a second filter to run tandem. If you like the Whisper brand, add on a 10 or a 10i. This will increase oxygen in the tank.

Now Cali recommends copper based meds for the Pandas and that has worked for him. Coppersafe is one such med, by Mardel, and the one I'd go with. You can either try the copper route, which will kill flukes, or you can try the Formalin route - but NOT BOTH. Also, once you try copper, it does not come out of the water with activated carbon, rather it comes out with a series of water changes. You never want to mix parasite meds. I've known many to use copper and maybe that would be a good route as it doesn't impact oxygen levels.

If it is any comfort to you, my 20 long remains in the 73.5 to 74.5 range and I have harlequin rasboras, white clouds, cories, otos and guppies. The low temp is a balance for the white clouds that like it cold and the other fish. The plants I have also like that temp range. The key is to lower it incrementally each day by only 1-1.5F. All thermometers vary by several degrees, so that part is hard. I've not found one yet that matches a heater. I generally don't trust the heaters temp sign to match. I go with my thermometer.

And yes, it is perfectly fine to break water changes up into different parts of the day. I've done them 6-8 hours apart when I needed to do a really large change so it wouldn't be shocking. Fish will love you for it as long as you respect their need for constant temp.

I think you will be equally shocked at what comes up from under those wood pieces. I too have two stacked pieces of driftwood to form a cave and just pulled them out yesterday. It's like all the poop in the tank accumulates under there, especially with bottom dwellers in the tank. Just think, the cories are laying in it all day long so if it compacts in an area like that, the gases come up.

If you do that 3-4 times a year, you'll have very healthy and happy fish. They like rearrangements too - it is mentally stimulating.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Mar-2005 13:46

Thanks, you two, for your help. I've read your posts over several times, so hopefully I'll address everything I need to in this response.

Fortunately I haven't had any more losses since yesterday ... the one that I thought was in danger of going next is still being lethargic and breathing hard, but hanging on for now. (BTW, I still see no other symptoms, and definitely don't see him shedding any mucus strands. Even the flashing wasn't a constant thing, just occasional. And I haven't seen any of them dashing for extra air today.) On the plus side, the other four cories were all active last night, so I'm hoping that whatever this is can be caught before it affects them.

I did a really good vac today, including behind and underneath the artificial plants, pushing the vac all the way to the bottom and trying to stir up the gravel a bit. The one area that I couldn't get to was under the driftwood, because I was worried I wouldn't be able to get it back together (it's two pieces stacked to make a cave area) so I'll wait till my husband gets home to have him help me tonight. Any reason I can't do another vac tonight after doing one this morning? Twice a day isn't going to hurt anything, will it?

I got a lot of gunk up, but I did not get any bad smell (rotten eggs or otherwise). The gunk wasn't anything that seemed outside the usual stuff you get during a gravel vac. I also dropped the water level a bit so the filter's waterfall (it's a Whisper 20) is making extra bubbles, so hopefully that will help them breath. Oh, and all the other fish are accounted for, so there aren't any dead fish bodies hiding to make things worse.

OK, so about the water conditions ... I know 76-78 is a bit high for cories, and I have been trying to nudge it down for the last few weeks. Unfortunately my heater setting doesn't seem to correlate with my thermometer readings, so I've been trying to make small adjustments to make sure I don't overcorrect. Since I have the harlequin rasboras in there, I'm going to shoot for a temp of 74-75, to try to reach a happy medium. Does that sound better?

As for the PH, yes, I know it's high at 7.6, and my water is indeed extremely hard (we use a water softener, but I've read that the fish can't tell the difference?)), but the pandas were bred locally so are supposed to be used to both the hardness and the PH. I honestly can't see me struggling to keep my PH at a 7.0. I think the wild swings would be worse than keeping it high, or at least that's what I've always read. So for good or bad, I'm just going to have to stick to fish that can adapt to the hard water we have here in Indiana.

So for right now, I just need to do frequent water changes and try to get up as much from the bottom of the gravel as possible, right? And hold off on medication until we can figure out a more specific diagnosis?

Thanks again for all your help,

Kathy