FishProfiles.com Message Forums

If gill flukes or other similar parasites are implicated as Cory_Di suggests, then I suspect it's time to look for a copper-based medication.

In my experience, Pandas do not react adversely to copper-based medications provided one exercises a little care. Mine did not show any adverse effects when I used a copper based snail eradicator in the breeding aquarium. Mind you, the dosage was fairly low. May be wise to try half normal dosage but prolong the treatment just in case.

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Cali - glad you found the post - sorry I didn't link you to it earler. How you feel about the flashing. Could the more frequent bursts for the surface be attributed to gill flukes?

Great point about the UGF as I did not consider that. I'm also not experienced with UGF's and now have my first with a 2.5 gallon betta tank that has one.

Kathy - I meant to ask you just how often they are flashing, if I haven't already. If they are doing it all day long, then it is likely parasites. If it is occassional, as they are sifting, then it could just be food getting stuck in the gills. The will often slam themselves sideways to bang lose debris in the gills.

If you have a strong power filter - biowheel, aquaclear, whisper, etc. - you should be able to get away with a 100% gravel vac. I have done this many times without incident when I wantd to get the whole tank done. In my 20 long, with the smallest of gravel vacs, I only lost 4 gallons in the process or 20%. Man does the gunk ever come up. I do get a rotten egg smell in some locations, but have never gotten bubbles coming up the tube. In many cases, you can pull the gases right up the tube and that's why it is important to work slowly and hold it still just for a second or two as you work in a line.

If you have a UGF, then it becomes important to know how long it has run, and if the power has ever been cut by power loss, etc. Even a short period of time can build anaerobic bacteria under the plate.

When Cali speaks about the kH or degrees of kH, there is a test you can have done to see where it is at. If you don't have a test kit, bag some water and have the lfs test it for you to tell you what your hardness is. If they give it to you in ppm (parts per million), just multiply that number by 0.056 to get degrees hardness or dkH.

The temp is a big issue as Cali points out, especially if you opt to use something like Ick Guard 2 at half strength. If the temp is already causing them issues with breathing (less oxygen the higher the temp), any formalin product will make it much worse. It is a good idea to have a spare bubbler or two on hand for when illness strikes as you can stir the water where more can make contact with the astmosphere (more o2).

Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Mar-2005 10:04

Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Mar-2005 10:07

Hello Kathy.

First step. Temperature. 78°F is pretty close to the upper limit for Pandas. Ideally you should be looking at 72-73°F. Pandas like it cooler than some other Corydoras species. And, if they're coming down with some as yet unidentified illness, it'll speed their descent if you keep them too warm.

Pandas have an unfortunate trait. Whereas with many fish species, the descent from full health to terminal illness is a relatively steady curve, with a reasonable window of opportunity to intervene and cure the fish, the curve for Pandas descends fairly steeply. Therefore the window of opportunity is smaller. And that's when you do know what's hitting them.

Your pH is fairly close to the upper limit too. Bring it nearer neutral (7.0) if you can, and keep it around that level.

Next, hardness. If your water is hard enough for Rift Lake Cichlids, it needs softening FAST. Pandas in the wild live in mineral deficient waters that are fed directly from Andean meltwaters. Hardness levels in their native home are sometimes as low as 0.5°dH. In the aquarium, you should consider 10°dH to be an upper limit. Above this, and life gets complicated.

Next, check the body. When you see your Pandas respiring at an accelerated rate, do they appear to be shedding opaque mucus strands? Usually this is associated with excess acidity and a gunky gravel bed. But, it might be a good idea to check out other possibilities. Anaerobic pockets are unlikely if you're using an undergravel filter driven by a powerhead. If you're not using UGF at all, then this could be a factor.

My Pandas make life entertaining during gravel vac operations by following the gravel vac around looking for titbits they missed earlier: which is why my gravel vac is a home-mad Heath Robinson affair using a soft plastic lemonade bottle! Less chance of damage if they do get in the way. But then, I get my arms wet. I dive in and move the 'business end' directly by hand, so that I can shoo the little guys away when they get too close!

If you're using UGF, especially powerhead driven UGF, then you should have no anaerobic pockets. But in this life, there is sometimes a gap between 'should be' and 'is'. It might be worth checking things out in the places where your gravel vac doesn't normally reach just to be sure.

Oh, and I have live plants to take account of too. Makes the gravel vac operation that more interesting!

If there are any anaerobic spots, and you suddenly find black decomposition or worse still, a rotten egg odour from any released bubbles, that's your cause. Hydrogen Sulphide gas (a by product of anaerobic decomposition) is lethal. To give you an idea how lethal, a chemical plant near my home accidentally released the gas into the atmosphere. Even in fairly low concentrations, it causes respiratory arrest in humans. In higher doses, it can kill as quickly as cyanide. It's also VERY soluble in water. If that's affecting your Pandas, then they'll die like flies. Check the whole substrate, and if you get even the slightest 'rotten egg' whiff, act FAST. With Hydrogen Sulphide in a Panda aquarium, seconds count - literally. Normally, I wouldn't advise dumping Pandas in new water straight from the bucket, but if H2S is your problem, then the stress from being transferred to complete new water is going to be minor compared to the stress induced by H2S poisoning. Respiratory arrest (the complete shutdown of the gills) affects most fish poisoned with H2S quickly, but Pandas are doubly sensitive to such things. If there is ANY H2S in the aquarium, get them out of there FAST and into clean, H2S-free water. Then, eliminate the dead spots. Don't put the Pandas back until the dead spots are all gone.

One of the things you learn about Pandas pretty quickly is this: if they DO need intervention, then they need it fast. Where most fish would make do with, to use a human analogy, a trip to the chemists, Pandas rapidly reach a stage where they need the full ER setup and intensive care. Which is why prevention is infinitely better than cure with Pandas.

My guess is that Cory_Di has hit the nail on the head: anaerobic dead spots. If the other water parameters are fine, then this looks to be a significant possibility. I'd also check for any hidden dead corpses of other fish that might have ended up contributing to the dead spots.

Even if you can't smell rotten eggs, if you get blackish looking material in your substrate instead of the usual 'milk chocolate' mulm, then you've got H2S in your water. Nail it FAST.








Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Ok, Kathy - deep breath. With cories going up for air that frequently, there is something wrong, possibly with the water itself.

I would do an immediate, partial water change of 20-30%, but make sure it is the same temp - not 2-3F higher or lower. Make sure you don't alter the overall tank temp more than 1-1.5F during the water change process.

This will help them breathe better if the water is extra rich with oxygen. They may have gill flukes or some protozoan infestation.

You may want to try something like Ick Guard 2, starting with half strength if you see the flashing all day long. Pandas are even more sensitive than other scaleless fish, so I'd go with the half strength all the way and see if it stops it. Watch them and if they looks stressed, do a partial water change. Otherwise, lets see what the water changes do for them. Ick Guard 2 has formalin for an active ingredient and it will kill off protozoans as well as other parasites, like flukes. But, don't turn the heat up with it as it is a gas.

Remove activated carbon and let us know how they do.

I know it is a hard thing to do and time consuming, you may want to get a dedicated tank bucket and gently pull out those fake plants and decorations on one side of the tank and go right to the glass with the gravel vac. There could be pockets of hydrogen sulfide or anaerobic bacteria. Fish poop and floating food bits accumulate, then compact in areas that are not agitated, when we only go around things. It is kind of like gardening. You need to rake the soil all around a plant for healthy root system. Well, there is not much to stir the gravel at the site of decorations and fake plants - no roots or nothing. If it is deep (greater than 1 inch), then all the more you should do this.

I do this process on my 20 long about every six weeks and just did it tonite. I can do the other half next week. You have no idea what is deep down in the gravel in dead spots. This can create gases and it can create deadly anaerobic bacteria which creep up into the water column.

I have bought an extra small siphon so that I may work slowly and methodically. I hold the siphon in place after going down to the glass so that any gases are pulled up into the tube, as well as debris.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 01-Mar-2005 22:22

Oh! Yes, I have noticed at least a couple of them "flashing", though they've been doing it pretty much from the beginning, not just recently. I've been calling them my schtizophrenic cories, LOL. (I'm glad to hear there is a name for it and other cories do it; what causes it? Now I'm really curious.)

The other thing I've noticed in the last couple days is some "shimmying" along the gravel by a few of them ... staying mostly in place, but hovering for long periods a cm above the gravel, shimmying back and forth. I originally thought it might be some type of mating behavior, but now I'm wondering if it might be related?

I have a feeling #4 is on his way out, though ... I have another small one hanging out lethargically in the front of the tank, and he's gone up for air at least 7 times in the last 2 hours. I didn't notice #3 doing this (gulping air) before he died, but #1 and #2 died at night, so they might have and I wouldn't notice.

EDITED TO ADD: OldTimer, the substrate is the medium sized coated gravel, the smoother stuff. I specifically asked when I got it if it was smooth enough for cories, since I knew I'd be getting them, and I was told that was the kind to get for them. I hope I was told right.

This is really bumming me out! Especially since I don't feel I can go out and buy more unless I know why these have died so I can try to fix it.

Kathy


Last edited by kathyb91 at 01-Mar-2005 17:32

Last edited by kathyb91 at 01-Mar-2005 17:34

I'm definitely not a cory expert, but what does your substrate consist of? Is it sharp or exceedingly small? Could the panda's be picking up bits of it when eating and then passing back through the gills, possibly causing injury or damage?

---

Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain

Can you describe for me what flashing and scratching would look like?

The fish will be swimming along normally, then it will suddenly turn on its side and rub the side of its head against something (wood, rock, plant or substrate). Then it seems to be swimming normally again. The action will only take a fraction of a second.

I do try to deep vac at least part of the front of the tank each week since that's where I drop the pellets/wafers, but it has been harder to deep vac the gravel in the back, under the artificial plants, especially since there always seems to be one who insists on staying there while we vac and we're afraid we're going to injury him! But since they haven't been eating as well this week, the gravel did get more dirty than usual -- the Wardley's sinking shrimp pellets, especially, seemed to be ignored and left a ton of "powder" around that we had to clean extra well.

I haven't noticed any heavy breathing, though they've been hiding more than usual, so I haven't gotten to study them for long periods of time. Two were just sitting in the front of the glass, and I didn't notice their gills moving quickly; the other three are no where to be found (I assume they are in their little hiding spot under the driftwood but, of course, now I'm hoping that they are still alive!)

Can you describe for me what flashing and scratching would look like?

Other than that, the only symptom I might have noticed is an irridecent patch of skin around the gills of a few of the cories, but I'm not sure if it was just my imagination because I've been grasping at straws.

Kathy

Sorry this is happening, Kathy - it is always heartbreaking.

Any chance you could post pics?

Do any others have symptoms like the ones that died?

Is your gravel compacted any place? If your aquarium allows it, you may want to do incremental deep vacs to make sure you don't have a pocket that is compacted. These areas get void of oxygen rich water and develop anaerobic bacteria. Of course, the cories are sitting on the bottom.

Do you notice anybody flashing along the bottom or scratching? Are the gills moving more rapidly? Note that cory gills will move more rapidly right after a large meal - this is normal. I'm talking about round the clock heavy breathing.