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[font color="#008000"]I purchased some goldfish a week ago... They shipped them sooo poorly it was pathetic. The poor fish were barely alive!! They, first of all, put them in a teeny-tiny box, double bagged, NO evidence of BAG BUDDIES, with only a flimsy layer of insulation on the bottom of the box. That was it. NO PROTECTION WHATSOEVER....

The fish were half-dead. They were beautiful, though...

I tried to save them (20 fish) and all of them except for two have recovered. First they developed fin rot and now the cottony appearance of fungus infection.

I just changed 30% of the water in that particular tank, before I started the Maroxy treatment (read below). [/font]

[font color="#000080"]Ammonia Level (ppm): 0.5 to 1.0

Nitrite (ppm): 0[/font]

[font color="#C00000"]Nitrate(ppm): Yellow = < 5ppm ???? (it's an established tank!) **Why would the Nitrates be in the yellow?? I tested it twice and still got the same results... ?? [/font]

[font color="#000080"]Are you testing with dipsticks?: No

pH Level: 7.6

Temperature: 72

Heater (yes/no): yes

Aeration: Penguin filter and one additional line for bubbles

Water change amount/frequency: normally once a week - at least 30%, but since they have been sick, I've been changing more frequently than that (like every 2 days or so).

Tank size: 55 gall

How long has the tank has been in operation: 2 years

Type of Filtration: Penguin

Water additives/conditioners/pH adjusters: Stress Coat

What, how much and how often is your Goldfish fed: twice a day, a little bit at a time.

Tank inhabitants (number, size and type of fish/other aquatic pets): 5 panda Oranda Goldfish (about 5 inches each)

New additions/changes to the tank: READ ABOVE-overcrowded shipment

Unusual findings on the Goldfish: READ ABOVE - overcrowded shipment

Unusual behavior: Goldie attacked with fungus is still eating!!

Medications/what has been tried or done do far: Melafix, Pimafix, Rid-Ich, salt (0.3%) and today I changed about 30% of the water and added Maroxy. [/font]

PATTY

PattyPedd attached this image:


Last edited by PattyPedd at 04-Mar-2005 19:19

Hi Patty and thanks for supplying all of your info.

I'm still not clear on one thing so help me. - You bought 20 goldfish and have 18 left or still have 20 left, but two are sick as described?

Back to your issue .....

Why did you try the Rid Ich? Did you suspect ick after the chilling? Rid ich has stuff that would deal with fungus, but not necessarily columnaris that is bacteria that looks like fungus. Ditto with Maroxy - it is geared more towards true fungus. The melafix and pimafix were good first choices, but these fish may need something stronger.

I'm wondering if the two don't have costia. But, Rid Ich, with the formalin, should check that, provided it was dosed at full strength according to instructions.

I'm concerned with mixing meds as you have put alot into that tank. Things like Maroxy and components of Rid ich don't want to be mixed. Just a 30% water change won't eliminate them necessarily. The filter must be run overnight at least to get more out.

If anything, I would keep those fish on the 0.3% salt solution for now. Let the filter run with activated carbon and move these fish to the new medicated food by Jungle - Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food. I have seen it more widely available in other pet stores besides PetSmart now so check around. I would also continue with the Pimafix and Melafix. After a few days, increase the salt another 0.1% (1 teaspoon/gal) daily for 3 days to make it the full 0.6% solution, but watch them for signs of stress and do a water change.

The salt in the water will inhibit the bacteria and the medicated food will aid it through the blood stream, much like zits can be cured with oral tetracycline. The 0.6% solution will also address potential costia, which can give a finrot appearance, especially if you see excess slimecoat. That would likely be costia moreso than anything and it is prevalent in goldfish lately. There is a salt resistant form that requires the stronger salt solution.

Now, you mention they are going into a 55 gallon. Is that temporary? 20 goldfish would require so much more room than that considering their size within a good 2-3 years. Most people only keep 2-3 adults in a 55 long term and eventually, they want to be in a 90 or 125.

I am struggling with 2 3-inch goldfish in a 36 gallon bowfront. The nitrates rise faster than I can keep up with weekly 30% water changes. Nitrates over 40ppm affects their ability to fight disease and parasites, so you will need to keep tabs on this and make your water changes based on that. If it takes 3, 30% water changes to keep nitrates below 40ppm, then that is what will need to happen.

You say the tank was cycled for 2 years. How long was it empty? Adding that many fish all at once could stress a small biofilter and that biofilter is reduced as it sits empty. It can take a week or two for all the good bacteria to starve off. So, I would highly recommend daily checks of ammonia and nitrite and several times weekly checks of nitrate. pH needs to be checked twice weekly too with all those fish in there.

[font color="#000080"]Hi Diane,

Ohhh, Ok. Let me back track a little so you can get the full picture:

I did get 20 fish, all in one small bag. Since I knew I was getting 20 fish that day, I had arranged for three tanks to be empty, with cycled water and ready to go (I got the water from my other large tanks). Now, when I get new fish I try to aclimatize them, but these fish were in such peril, gasping for air!!! that the only thing for me to do was to dump them in the tanks WITHOUT FLOATING THEM FIRST!! I was horrified to do this but I really saw no other alternative. They were dying in front of me. So, there I was with three tanks (two-55 gallon tanks and one-30 gallon tank). I placed the ten little ranchus in the 30 gallon tank and split the large pandas into the two-55 gallon tanks. A bit clearer now? Sorry.... I was a bit upset when I wrote the initial email....!! So, I got 5 large pandas in one-55 gallon tank DOING WONDERFUL, another 5 large pandas in another-55 gallon tank with problems, and 10 little ranchus in a 30 gallon tank doing wonderful too (I am going to get them a larger tank - just buying time right now). I do water changes, at the very least, once a week (30% of the water) but usually twice a week.

Ok, I added Rid-Ich in the problem-tank because one of them presented with the familiar ich spots. Since it cures fungal infections I thought it would be a good idea. It turns out there are two types: true fungal and bacterial fungal infections...! Since I was feeding that particular tank with Medi-Koi, this HAS GOT TO BE a true fungal infection.

I too, was concerned about mixing too many meds, but this was such a desperate situation that I had no other choice. Melafix and Pimafix did not really help much!

I changed 50% of the water before I added Rid-Ich for a couple of days (so as to not bring the salt concentration dangerously higher).

I take it I am supposed to increase the salt again?? Now, the nitrate test result worries me. Why would it indicate 0??? That tank held my HEALTHY goldfish until I sold them about two-three weeks ago, and I did water changes and made it all nice and pretty for the new fish... Why would nitrates show up as 0 (0r less than 5ppm)?? I tested it twice!

Patty[/font]

Oh honey - putting water from cycled tanks does not make them cycled. Only media from another tank that is cycled will do that.

You need to be checking for ammonia and nitrite daily as I feel your tanks could be cycling. If not the original cycle, it could be a mini-cycle from a sudden increase in load.

Unfortunately, goldfish aren't like a small load, they are like a megaload.

I would call around the fish stores in your area and ask if anyone has BioSpira. It is better than Cycle or stress zyme or others, imho. Get bags for each tank . If you can't afford that, then by all means, get whatever bacterial starter you can.

Also, find out if your local fish store sells media bags. They are nylon bags that allow you to store your own media in them. If you have a tank that has been running a long time, with a good size fish load in it, fill the bag with a handful of surface gravel (and it must be from the surface). Drop the bag behind your activated carbon cartridge. This gravel has good bacteria and by putting it right in the filter flow in the nylon bag, you give your tank a jump. If you cannot find a filter bag, then simply cut open a Penguin cartridge (slit the blue part vertically), and dump the media. Now, fill those partitions with the handful of gravel. Take it from the tank that was the most crowded before the goldfish arrived. This is temporary until your biowheels get populated for the load.

Also, pick up some Prime or Amquel Plus, if you don't have it. Add one drop per gallon, or 2 if it gets bad, every 12 hours. But, if you see your fish piping for air, cut back. These products will cut down on oxygen, but can neutralize some ammonia and nitrite.

You can also use something called Ammo-chips in the filter cartridge along with the stones. Just pepper a small handful in. Close the cartridge back with some safety pins if it won't stay in.

As for them piping for air in the bag, all you have to do in a situation like that to give them the extra 15 minutes they need to float, is to use a cup and pull some water from the bag, and then pour it back in so it splashes. Doing that several times raises the oxygen again. People do this in their fish tanks during power outages to keep the oxygen levels up.

Remember the nitrogen cycle: Ammonia eating bacteria create nitrites, and nitrite eating bacteria ultimately create nitrates, which are reduced through regular water changes. Eventually, your filters will control the ammonia and nitrite, but your nitrates will rise quickly. Fish can certainly tolerate very high nitrates. My goldies came from tanks that were well above 100, if not 200. But, it can cause dilated blood vessels - often seen in the fins, and can cause ill health as it lowers their immunity.

I believe that the reason you have zero nitrates is because your filter is not cycled. Or, if it was and sat empty, it has lost its colony.

Goldfish are hardy, but you will be doing alot of water changes, most likely daily and in large volumes. I'm assuming you have a python or something like that.

Hang in there. I'm still curious - why did you get so many fish, especially all at once? Stocking is always best done a few fish at a time to allow the bacterial filter to grow along with the load. Nitrifying bacteria grows very slowly unfortunately. 5 goldfish of any type in a 55 will not work long term. They need at least 20 gallons per fish as they age, and preferrably more like 30-40.

Hopefully, this gives it perspective:
Cory_Di attached this image:


Last edited by Cory_Di at 04-Mar-2005 21:34[/font]

Oh honey - putting water from cycled tanks does not make them cycled. Only media from another tank that is cycled will do that. [font color="#000080"]But the tank remained the same for about a week (only with one small pleco who was left behind) - the gravel, fake plants stayed in there. I merely did a water change in preparation for the new fish [/font]

You need to be checking for ammonia and nitrite daily as I feel your tanks could be cycling. If not the original cycle, it could be a mini-cycle from a sudden increase in load. [font color="#000080"] You got it. I definitely will.[/font]

Unfortunately, goldfish aren't like a small load, they are like a megaload. [font color="#000080"]yes, I am aware of the large bio-load they put out therefore I thought I was being careful by doing my water changes and trying not to overcrowd my tanks. I was planning on splitting them into different tanks and eventually selling them, thus I would end up with a few good breeders (I purchased the 20 fish to breed them). I have been very successful breeding my other goldies so far, so I decided to add variety and color with these ones. I also have a 90 gallon tank with 6 large goldies who have babies right and left![/font]

I would call around the fish stores in your area and ask if anyone has BioSpira. It is better than Cycle or stress zyme or others, imho. Get bags for each tank . If you can't afford that, then by all means, get whatever bacterial starter you can. [font color="#000080"] I have Bio-zyme. Have you heard of that one??[/font]

Also, find out if your local fish store sells media bags. They are nylon bags that allow you to store your own media in them. If you have a tank that has been running a long time, with a good size fish load in it, fill the bag with a handful of surface gravel (and it must be from the surface). Drop the bag behind your activated carbon cartridge. This gravel has good bacteria and by putting it right in the filter flow in the nylon bag, you give your tank a jump. If you cannot find a filter bag, then simply cut open a Penguin cartridge (slit the blue part vertically), and dump the media. Now, fill those partitions with the handful of gravel. Take it from the tank that was the most crowded before the goldfish arrived. This is temporary until your biowheels get populated for the load. [font color="#000080"]I can also do that from my 90 gallon tank, but again, this tank had gravel and fake plants from the previous load of fish. I will do what you say, regardless! I don't want to mess up even more. I feel bad enough as it is![/font]

Also, pick up some Prime or Amquel Plus, if you don't have it. Add one drop per gallon, or 2 if it gets bad, every 12 hours. But, if you see your fish piping for air, cut back. These products will cut down on oxygen, but can neutralize some ammonia and nitrite. [font color="#000080"]So far, both ammonia and nitrites are at zero. I will check them again daily, as you said. [/font]

As for them piping for air in the bag, all you have to do in a situation like that to give them the extra 15 minutes they need to float, is to use a cup and pull some water from the bag, and then pour it back in so it splashes. Doing that several times raises the oxygen again. People do this in their fish tanks during power outages to keep the oxygen levels up. [font color="#000080"]I hear what you're saying, but considering the ammonia in the water, my instinct was to get them out of that water right away. In hindsight, I am not sure that was the best decision, but I'm gonna have to live with that...[/font]

Remember the nitrogen cycle: Ammonia eating bacteria create nitrites, and nitrite eating bacteria ultimately create nitrates, which are reduced through regular water changes. Eventually, your filters will control the ammonia and nitrite, but your nitrates will rise quickly. Fish can certainly tolerate very high nitrates. My goldies came from tanks that were well above 100, if not 200. But, it can cause dilated blood vessels - often seen in the fins, and can cause ill health as it lowers their immunity. [font color="#000080"]I will keep an eye for sure![/font]

I believe that the reason you have zero nitrates is because your filter is not cycled. Or, if it was and sat empty, it has lost its colony. [font color="#000080"]DARN!![/font]

Goldfish are hardy, but you will be doing alot of water changes, most likely daily and in large volumes. I'm assuming you have a python or something like that. [font color="#000080"] Ohhh yes! Python and I go waaaayyyssss!! I love my Python! [/font]

Hang in there. I'm still curious - why did you get so many fish, especially all at once? Stocking is always best done a few fish at a time to allow the bacterial filter to grow along with the load. Nitrifying bacteria grows very slowly unfortunately. 5 goldfish of any type in a 55 will not work long term. They need at least 20 gallons per fish as they age, and preferrably more like 30-40. [font color="#000080"]Again, the intent was of breeding them. I would keep the best breeders and sell the rest, as well as their offspring. So far, I have managed to sell my other goldfish' offspring relatively easily so I wanted to get prettier ones. You live and learn...! Listen, thank you SOOO MUCH for all your help!

Patty [/font]



Last edited by PattyPedd at 04-Mar-2005 21:52

Last edited by PattyPedd at 04-Mar-2005 21:53

Ahhh - you were looking for some breeders and will sell some of the fish - that make sense . It's not every day you run into someone who buys a fishstore's worth of goldfish

No problem on how they were handled, you saw them suffering and acted - nothing wrong there. I just thought I'd mention it for future situations . If they had ich, it was probably from the lack of insulation, not the acclimation. Your tank was probably warmer, not cooler than what they were exposed to.

By all means use the biozyme if its all you have, but dry forms, if that's what it is, are not as effective.

You may not see a problem - I'm just speculating based on what I understood you to tell me. Let's hope the nitrates show up tomorrow or the next day, with no ammonia or nitrites. Feed lightly for now - once daily. We'll see in a day or two if the ammonia starts to go up and don't forget, goldies are very hardy to cycling toxins. We just need to keep them at lower levels, should those tanks go into a new cycle or mini-cycle.

With this in mind, I would not add anything that will kill the biocolony. In fact, the Maroxy and the Rid Ich Plus, may have hindered them somewhat already, so lets not add anything else that would kill off good bacteria. If those two are in really bad condition and are not responding to more salt and pimafix/melafix, then try to quarantine them into a bin or something and treat there with an antibiotic like Furan-2, Nitrofura-G, Furacyn, or if you can't find those, Fungus Clear.

The salt itself will inhibit your good bacteria, but will also help with the nitrite phase, preventing its uptake into the blood stream. In fact, since there could be a cycling issue, lets stop at 0.4% max. You need to approximate how much salt is in the tank now, based on how much you first added, and how many water changes (and how much) were done.

If you need help, just post how much you added (I think you said 0.3%), and how many water change were done on the tank in question since then.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 04-Mar-2005 22:46

[font color="#000080"]well... I think I've made two large water changes since that day (maybe 40% and 40-50%). There probably isn't much salt left, if you ask me....

I figured I needed close to 50 tablespoons of salt so I divided into 3, which gave me about hmmm... 16 or so tablespoons for the initial dose. I grabed a brand new plastic media box (with grids) and filled it with salt instead of the media (pretty resourceful, don't you think? LOL). I brought some gravel from my good tank (can't hurt!). Can't find my Bio-Zyme! (grrrrr....!!).

That's it. I won't add any other medications at this point. Don't want to upset the fish even more.... do you agree??

Patty [/font]

Yeah - lets give 'em a rest.

You are right that if you eventually added in 1 Tbsp per gallon, and then did two large scale water changes, you can assume there is not much left.

With such salt levels, you'll want to limit your water changes to 30% so you don't send them into osmotic shock from a sudden lack of salt. You add it in thirds to gradually increase it at least 12 hours apart. I like to do it in 3 days, but the closest you want to dose the 0.1% would be 12 hours.

It is the same in reverse. They should not be exposed to a sudden decrease as it is stressful in another way.

I would get another 50 tsp going tonite if you can, followed by another 50 tomorrow, then the next day. After that, stop. During this process, watch the fish for signs of improvement or deterioraton. Take parameters into consideration. If they suddenly look worse, check ammonia and nitrite to be sure.