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Ok Di, I re-read your last long post!

I will think about a way to try what you do. The problem is I am running out of space inside to store things like water jugs. Especially with the lids off! Plus, if I'm changing basically 1/9 of the water every day, with water from the same source, then wouldn't that be keeping the PH stable? In other words, if I aged the water then added it, the resulting combination would be different that the results I'm getting now. And that would result in a change in parameters. Does that make sense?

I did smash up the medicated food for the corys, and it did sink. But they didn't seem very interested.

On monday, I will vac under one of the caves, then I will do the other on Tuesday. Keep in mind, a week ago, before I started the last med treatment, I vac'd the whole tank 2 days in a row. So hopefully it's not that bad with 2 little corys in a 10 gal tank.

I will take new water readings tomorrow and report them. Today I saw some ammonia readings (I have one of those ammonia disks) which surprised me, but maybe the maracyn at max dose overpowered the good bacteria. Bummer! But that was why I changed 2 gal of water today. And as always, there is Amquel+ in there, so a little ammonia should be de-toxified. But I will also add more NIC before I go to bed.

Ok, thats it for now. Thanks again for you time Di, and you too mindbent. Hopefully Di is right, and the fish are actually cured, and now just need to heal. But if not, thanks for another suggestion.

-Dennis

Its always great to hear a good ending. Thanks for the update. It helps us to help others when we get feedback, good or bad on how things went. Fish have an incredible will to live and will fight hard. Some can't or won't spend the money, or feel it is inhumane to push treatments when the odds are agaisnst them. But, alas! Another success story.

She actually feeds the fish all the time. It's just the rest of the various work she doesn't know how to do.

But what you suggest is exactly what we do when we both go out of town.

thanks,
-Dennis (I've been signing 'Beefshank' huh? oops! )

I would strongly suggest that you buy a 7 day pill organizer for when you go away. One for each tank. Then, prefill them with what you want fed and make sure it is a little less than ordinary (like once daily instead of twice).

Mine is a set of colored containers that are all separate.

Why? More fish die at the hands of fish-sitters, spouses, freinds, and significant others, who unwittingly feed too much. You could come back to an ammonia spike and cloudy tanks.

The fish is ABOSOLUTELY looking, and acting better! NO question. He has no white slime anywhere, and swims around like he used to. As I said, hopefully his lip and barbels will grow back, but he eats just fine, but just looks a little funny. So I think I will stop adding the mela/pimafix.

Oh, and the tank FINALLY cycled! Ammonia and Nitrite are 0. Just in time for him to go back to the big tank. lol.

On thursday, I leave town for 5 days. So he may have to stay put till I get back. My wife will be here to feed him. But she won't want to do water changes. I will add water from the big tank, and remove salt till I go, but then he will be in a holding pattern till I get back. I'm just so happy he won't need meds, and will be in a cycled tank for that time!

thanks,

-Beefshank

It's been several days now, and my one little cory is doing really good! I've been changing 1 gal of water daily, and adding water from the main tank.

In the morning I leave till monday. But the tank is cycled, so he should be fine. When I get back, I will continue for several days with the water changes before I return him to his home.

I'll give an update when I get back.

thanks for all your help!

-Dennis

Ok, I'll leave the temp as is.

The current tank readings are:

Ammonia: .25
NitrIte: 0

I didn't test Nitrate as it's always pretty low with the daily changes.

So in one day, the ammonia went from 1.0, to .25 and the nitrite stayed 0....wierd...All I can figure is that since I seeded the tank, there was already enough nirtIte to NitrAte bacteria in there so that I never saw any nitrItes. I will test again tonight, including nitrates. In any case, less ammonia is good.

Not to change the subject to my other corys, but today I noticed that of the three that went back in the big tank, 2 have white spots on the ends of their fins! These were not there yesterday. And one has some (currently) very minor tail rot! This worries me greatly as I completely gravel vac'd the big tank TWICE in 4 days before I put them back. So I don't know what the problem is! I don't have reading on the tank right now, but it's cycled for sure, has never had a mini-cycle, and the ammonia disk shows no ammonia. I will of course test it tonight. It's nitrAtes should be around 20. I was planning on a water change tonight anyway, before I saw the fish.

So now I guess I need some advice on what to do about that too. I could quarentine the 3 corys in a different tank, or add them in with the 2 "sick" ones. But those 2 are (hopefully) healing, so that doesn't seem right, plus maybe the big tank needs something anyway or this will just keep happening.

The big tank has ottos, and a pleco, so there is NO salt in it.

What do you think? And Merry Christmas!

thanks,
-Dennis

I'd leave it at 75 for now. If you see sure signs of healing, then you can bring it up incrementally, but I'll be honest - all of my tanks are kept at 75 or lower. My 20 long has two species of cories in it and otos. The temp there ranges from 73.5 to 74.5. I keep it this way because I have to balance the need of my trops along with that of my white clouds, which like it cooler.

I don't think the melafix or pimafix would hinder the biofilter. The maracyn would. Keep dosing the NIC periodically. I don't see a need for Prime or Ammo-Lock if you are using Amquel (+). It would be redundant since Amquel (+) also treats ammonia.

Keep doing the water changes when you have time. I know the feeling with Christmas and New Years on the brink.

Sorry I haven't posted an update in a few days. As I said, I've been really busy. But I have been finding the time to to needed work on the hospital tank, just not to tell about it.

Yesterday I vac'd the area under the second cave. Now the whole tank has been vac'd over a 3 day period.

I also added a little extra salt.

I added the forth dose of mela/pimafix today.

I managed to catch a look at the 2 corys today (I actually try not to look everyday, I'm hoping that I will notice changes more if I don't see them everyday.) There wasn't any significant improvement, but they didn't look any worse either. I THINK the bad mouth looked slightly better, and the tail seems to have stopped rotting (but it's pretty much gone, so maybe it had to stop!)

I've been feeding them in the dark the last 2 days, but of course, if it's dark, I can't watch them! Tonight I dropped a wafer at the front, and will see if it's gone tomorrow.

I think I lost all my bacteria towards the end of the maracyn meds. My current readings are:

ammonia: 1.0
nitrIte: 0
NirtAte: 10

After I took the carbon out on Sunday, I added a dose of NIC, and a aged filter from my main tank. Then today I added another dose of NIC.

There is still Amqiel+ in the water, so hopefully the 1.0 ammonia is still safe. But if it hasn't dropped any by morning, I think I will add some Ammolock, or Prime (I've got both already.)

I know that pima/melafix isn't supposed to to harm the bacterial filter, but do you think makes it harder to establish one?

My other question for the day is: As we are treating the fish assuming they are cured, but not healed, should I bring the temp back up? It's still at about 75f.

thanks again,

-Dennis

Hi Dennis,

The sick cory might prefer to eat after the lights are turned off. Basically, even healthy cories who eat during the day prefer to eat in the dark. Try feeding a little bit about 10 mins after you've turned the lights off and see if he goes out to eat it. It might be alright only extremely shy.

When I brought up the pH issue up, it was because you said that the pH is 7.9 in the hospital tank and 7.2 in the main tank, and I only wanted you to remember that you will have to acclimate them when you transfer them back (soon, I hope!). There's a post in Water Quality from a guy whose water, when coming out of the tap, have a pH of 7.4, but that rises within 24 hours or so to over 8.6. This would be dangerous for the fish, but this is a very extreme case of pH swing. Most of us don't experience that and are fine without letting the water sit, as long as there isn't a big change between the tap and the tank, and as long as it's only a relatively small amount. I just let my water trickle slowly to the tank and there is not a big pH change, if at all (nothing the test kit registers, at least). On the whole, if you don't experience a pH swing after you add water, then I think there's nothing to worry about.

As for your fish, Di was right, still having the spots doesn't mean they're still infected, they might be cured but not fully healed. As we said, it might take some time. Do you notice any difference in the way they look? Did the spots get bigger/smaller? How is the fin doing?

If anything, I'd add melafix/pimafix or both, and monitor. Did you thoroughly sanitize the net they were transferred with? Netting is nasty. The outer layers of fish are sensitive and when we net them, we scrape away slimecoat in the process and can actually cause abrasions that are too difficult to see. These easily become infected. Many infections will come post transfer (within 3 days). Columnaris is good for transferring this way.

I typically store my nets in either a "Net Soak" solution by Jungle, or a use several Tbsp of predissolved aquarium salt in only a small amount of hot water (hypersalinated).

The best fish stores will use the net once, then sanitize. I've seen this. Others will pull a dead or dying fish out with the same net that they capture yours. We need to be mindful of how easily things transfer at home too.

How are they now?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too!!!

At some point, it is those caves that you want to move gently and gravel vac under. They won't like being disturbed . However, when they lay there all day, poop just keeps coming out in the same general area. I get the most yuks up in the areas where the cories congregate and lurk all day.

Good luck. It's more important that they eat.

Ok, now its Sunday afternoon.

The carbon is out, the pima and melafix are in. As is a little extra salt.

I changed 2 gallons of water, and gravel vac'd most of the bottom. I didn't want to move their caves so I could only get the parts that are exposed.

I feed them regular food, and a see the one with the bad mouth eating it. The one with the bad tail is still hiding.

Di, I read quickly over you last post about how to aclimate water. As before I am in a big hurry, and have to admit that I just kinda skimmed it. But I will come back tonight and read it much more carefully, and comment on it. I promise.

As always, thanks for your time.

-Dennis

Hey Dennis, I should have clarified something for you on how I get the 1 gallon bottles up to temp.

I always have about 6, 1 gallon jugs pre-filled with conditioned water at all times in a basement closet. Much of it has aged from 3-7 days. When I need to do a water change, I know the water temp is around room temp (69-71F) and my tank temps are around 75F. Technically, I may be able to get away with just adding 2 gallons of water to my 20 long at that temp without affecting the overall tank temp more than +/- 1F. However, I like to change 3-4 gallons. So, what I do is plug up the laundry tub, fill it with about 2 inches of hot tap water and let the jugs sit for about 3-5 minutes. It doesn't take long at all. I do the same when I do 100% water changes on my 2 gallon betta tanks. Because it is 100%, I use a thermometer to match it exactly. The trick to measuring temp in such a situation, is to vigoursly shake the bottle right before taking a reading since the warmer water will be at the top and cooler at the bottom. I don't go through all of this on my 20 long changes because I'm only changing 20%. If I'm within a few degrees, it won't mess up the temp.

Just allowing the jugs to sit a few days is all that is needed to enable the gases to equilibriate.

You an push the salt tolerance a little. If you had a 1/2 dose in there, you could add just under half of what you added, provided it is a very slow transition. Once again, increase it over a 24-48 hour period and they won't notice it. It's all about osmotic balance. Many fish can tolerate things outside of their range if it is done very slowly.

I myself would just go with the melafix and pimafix. If the cories won't eat the medicated food, then don't deliver it as it will rot in the tank and grow bad bacteria (columnaris grows on rotting food).

Did you grind it up to cory sized bits? I use a pill grinder bought from the pharmacy, but you can crush it between to tablespoons too or other method. Jungle claims it can be crushed. It can be sunk this way and I would sink it into a corner that is easily gravel vac'd. Siphon that corner during your water changes.

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Ok, the APPlus contains the Acriflavine I suspected. This can be good against columnaris, but the dye (malachite) can be risky with bottom feeders and other catfish/no scale or even small fish. I would imagine that they added the Malachite in case a true fungus infection is involved along with it. It's only midly anti-bacterial.

Acriflavine was in with the Fungus Clear Tank Buddies if that was used. If the infection was still there, then the acriflavine didn't work for it.

Once again, it is possible that the infection on these guys cleared and now it's just the damage that is left.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 19-Dec-2004 11:42

Hi guys. I'm a little short on time and can't check the last several posts to make sure I've answered every question. So I'll just have to tell you what's up and go from memory.


It's Sunday morning about 2am. Yesterday I added carbon to the filter. Over the course of the med cycle, a lot of foam devolped on the surface. I've been watching for it to go down as a sign that the meds are out. It is a little smaller, but hardly like before the meds. So I am gonna let the carbon run till I get up. That will basically be a day of carbon. Then, foamy or not, I'll add the melafix, and pimafix, as well as more NIC. I did do my standard 1 gal water change today.

I probably won't have time to do the salt dip till monday. I am just REALLY busy this weekend before Christmas. I am a little worried about netting the pour sick little guys. Maybe I should up the tank salt slightly instead?

I read all that about PH changes. The thing is, I'm real careful to match the temp of the new water with the tank, but I can't do that AND let the water sit. I don't have another setup with a heater for that. So I'm gonna assume matching temp is better than matching PH. Also, as I only change 1 gal a day of water, hopefully the PH isn't shifting that much. I will run some tests on my tap water PH fresh vs. after sitting out. But that may have to wait even longer than monday. But I will try.

I didn't have a lot of time to watch them today. But they don't seem very interested in the anti-bacterial food. There is always some on the bottom, as opposed to the regular food which the gobble up. I suppose they will eat it when they get hungry enough, and maybe they are eating some and I'm not seeing it. In any case, there is more for the gravel vac then before I started with it. Bummer.

I think thats it for now. Sorry if I missed anything. Please, re-ask anything I missed. And I will report back ASAP.

-Dennis

OK, here are the ingredients to APPLUS+. malachite green, arciflavine hydrochloride. I hope this helps.

Mindbent - do me a favor and look closely at the bottle for an ingredient list. Post them here if you can find it. If it's an antibacterial, it could be acriflavine, or it could be any number of antibiotics or some type of cocktail.

Hey guys, I reported about 1 week ago that it sounds like the same thing one of my cories had and I would try to get the name of the stuff I used. I got it. I used APPLUS from aqua products. I have a 50 gal. tank so I put 40 drops in per day until the stuff was gone. Yes, I removed the carbon and since my heater broke the temp in the tank has been at 72 deg. I was worried that it would afect my kloaches, no problem. BEST OF LUCK.

Wow - thanks for covering untitled. I'm really glad you touched on that pH issue and the differences between straight out out the tap and after it has had a chance to equilibriate. To illustrate, for you Dennis, mine comes out of the tap at 7.0, but drops to 8.0. For this reason, I store several one gallon jugs of preconditioned water each week and let it sit. My tanks run about 7.7. The reason is aging and co2 from fish respiration. It is very dangerous to expose fish to a trasnfer from 7.2 to 7.9 or vice versa. When you go to move your fish back, you will need to use a method taught to me by Tammy, tho slightly modified because I can't remember how she did it.

When you are wanting to transfer your fish back to the main tank, remove about 10% of the hospital tank water and replace it with water from your main tank. Do this up to twice daily. After several days, the pH should be closer. I would get it exact if they are just recovering from illness, rather than expose them to a 0.2 change even.

I lost sight of the fact you were working in a hospital tank. Generally, we would do larger water changes, if the nitrite or ammonia were issues, but that dilutes meds. I have, in the past, added small amounts of meds back in to keep the therapeutic levels up there.

Don't buy new conditioners. One or both of those will work with heavy metal.

I'd go with the Pimafix and Melafix together, along with the anti-bacterial medicated food. If it is a stubborn infection it should respond to the oral antibiotic. I'm also in support of another salt dip on both. Just make sure the net you are using is properly sanitized in between uses. Just keep it in a hyper salinated solution (like several Tbsp dissolved in hot water in a small amount of water). My nephew's cory had lost it's tail and the Melafix/Pimafix combo fixed it completely.

I'm just wondering if this infection, or wound, hadn't healed already, but it will take time to get things looking normal. Afterall, if you cut your hair, it doesn't grow back tomorrow. I saw this with a bettas fin infection. It was a very stubborn fin melt and just wouldn't stop. I had tried Fungus Clear and it kept progressing. Then I went to Maracyn and it halted it, but it still looked ugly. I took a gamble that the infection was gone, but the end result was going to take time to heal. It was exactly the case. Now, some six weeks later, the bettas tail has grown long and is now close to growing out the ugly part.

Is he managing to eat?

I take my gravel vacs serious. On my 20 long, I remove everything, but rooted plants on half of the tank every 6 weeks, then remove the other half the following week. When I remove the decco and wood, I use a very narrow/tiny gravel vac that I can use to work with slowly and methodically. I go right to the glass, except near rooted plants. I alternate by doing one half one weekend, the other half the other weekend. I have a belief that rotted food and debris gets caught and wedged into tight places where it can't be dealt with. You can't believe what comes up when you do a gravel vac like this. Now, with tanks that have a good planted tank substrate and lots of rooted plants, this is not necessary as the roots will feed on that stuff and break it down. The roots will also move the substrate, keeping it healthy. Not so with gravel. Gravel is a bacterial trapper, for good and for bad. In between these deep cleaning vacs, I just do light gravel vacs between the decco about every 7-10 days depending on my nitrate target of 5-15.

Just don't remove too much water during the process, if you choose to do this on your main tank. Set a limit for how many gallons you are willing to remove and the pH difference of the replacement water should be considered. If it is out by several tenths from where it is after it has gone through equlibrium with the atmosphere of your home, then do smaller amounts and smaller sections of the tank at a time.

Carbon removes AmQuel and I think it's still not a bad idea to filter it even if the fish don't gasp, unless it's too much bother. I don't like the thought of chemicals in my tank, so I even leave the carbon in when I medicate.

Netting would of course be stressful, but we can assume that there are several degrees of stress. If I want to net my cories I have to take out the driftwood and plants out of my tank first which is very stressful for them, so I try to do it only in cases of emergency. If it's relatively easy for you to net them, then do it. Sometimes it works putting some food near the net and wait until they gather enough courage to go out and eat it and then netting is easier, but fish are not as forgetful as we tend to think, so it doesn't always work... I think you'll be okay with 3/4 dose instead of half. Just keep an eye on them.

Another option, if your main tank is big enough, is to run the filter of the hospital tank in the main filter, but I guess it could be unconvinient. Everybody says that NIC is great, so there must be something in it, but I never tried it. I tried JBL's filter start once, it's a very small bottle and you empty all of it onto the filter media. It's not very cost effective as it costs £3.99 (around $7.50), but it did cycle the filter instantly. I like to keep one at home just in case.

Have you tried testing your tap supply pH after letting it rest for a bit? Testing straight after taking it from the tap is not accurate is it might change once the gasses reach equilibrium after it sits for a while. For instance, if you water supply has relatively high co2 levels when they come out of the tap then it will lower the pH, but then the co2 will escape the water and the pH will go up. 0.7 pH swing could be quite stressful for the fish, so try testing after the water were let to sit for a while and see if it the pH rises. If it does than you should top up your hospital tank in the future only with water which were let to sit. A pH swing of 0.7 would be much more stressful in a small tank, and I assume your hospital tank is. It's probably not the cause of their problems, but it's better for them if they are not subjected to those pH swings. I would bother with trying to change the pH in the hospital tank if I were you. The recommended pH range for bronze cories is 6.5 - 7.5, but I think it's better for them to adjust to a slightly higher pH of 7.9 than subjecting them to constant changes in pH until you get it right. You also have to remember that if your main tank has a pH of 7.2, you will have to acclimatise them to the tank when they go back.

The problem with dirty substrate is that the waste buildup can lead to anaerobic bacterial growth which the cories, as bottom feeders, are greatly affected by. It is not very likely to happen in a hospital tank because it's not set up for long enough, but if cories are involved, it's better to have a bare bottom in a hospital tank. Don't take the gravel out now if as it will lead to a loss of some of the nitrifying bacteria which might mean longer cycle (and ammonia going up again), and when you gravel, do it very gently, without disturbing the gravel too much for the same reason. Just keep your gravel vacuum hovering above the gravel so it can suck out the dirt from the gravel. Melafix (and maybe Pimafix too?) will probably kill this bacteria.

Do you have test kits for GH and KH? If so, can you post the results here? It is not likely to be the source of your problem either, but having that information might give us a clue.

That's all for now then.