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I'd keep him in there a bit yet since a fish had died in that water. However, nothing prevents you from removing 10% of the water and replacing it with water from the tank to which he will be moved. If you do this daily, eventually, the water will be nearly the same - in salinity and otherwise. As you get closer, I would step it up to 20% on back to back days. The salt will change out, as will everything else and he'll get some pleasant "smells" coming at him from his home.

Sorry the other one didn't make it. You tried.

If you want him to feel the company of others, prop a mirror or two up in a corner . I've done this with a guppy when he needed to be hospitalized after an injury. He went nuts all alone and wouldn't stop swimming in circles as if to search for something. He calmed when I put a mirror up against he glass. If you put one mirror in a corner and another mirror in the adjacent side, it may appear to him that there are 2 other cories in the tank

Last edited by Cory_Di at 30-Dec-2004 20:57

So you are suggesting to NOT start removing the salt yet? Maybe give him another week before I even START to take the salt out?

What about continuing to add the mele/pimafix up until he comes out? Will the sudden lose of these things effect the transition? Also this weekend will be 2 weeks of the stuff. It seems to be helping him, but I don't want to O.D. him either.

Also, I have a question about cleaning the nets. I know you have commented a couple times about disinfecting them, and I currently have the sick fish net soaking in salt solution as you suggest. But I am wondering if any of these fish diseases can survive once the net dries out? Today, when I netted the dead fish, the net had been completely dry for at least 5 days. If it dries out again, after a couple days, would it be safe to use on other fish? I'm just curious as I have a couple bigger nets that would be hard to soak without using a fairly large container.


the mirrors are a good idea too!
thanks,
-Dennis

Last edited by Beefshank at 31-Dec-2004 01:03

Actually, what I would do is begin those 10% water changes today or tomorrow. If you are convinced he is not degrading any and actually healing, then don't add any more pimafix/melafix. If in doubt, continue dosing it, then stop before you do the last two 20% changes. By this time next week, that tank should be nearly salt free.

As for the nets, I have soaked in a bleach solution if there was confirmed disease. I use about 1/4 cup in a gallon of water and let it soak several hours. Then I rinse, rinse, rinse, with an overdose of dechlorinator. Then you can air dry. The alternative is just such an overdose of salt that nothing could survive (like a good cup for a gallon, predissolved in hot water).

The fish is ABOSOLUTELY looking, and acting better! NO question. He has no white slime anywhere, and swims around like he used to. As I said, hopefully his lip and barbels will grow back, but he eats just fine, but just looks a little funny. So I think I will stop adding the mela/pimafix.

Oh, and the tank FINALLY cycled! Ammonia and Nitrite are 0. Just in time for him to go back to the big tank. lol.

On thursday, I leave town for 5 days. So he may have to stay put till I get back. My wife will be here to feed him. But she won't want to do water changes. I will add water from the big tank, and remove salt till I go, but then he will be in a holding pattern till I get back. I'm just so happy he won't need meds, and will be in a cycled tank for that time!

thanks,

-Beefshank

I would strongly suggest that you buy a 7 day pill organizer for when you go away. One for each tank. Then, prefill them with what you want fed and make sure it is a little less than ordinary (like once daily instead of twice).

Mine is a set of colored containers that are all separate.

Why? More fish die at the hands of fish-sitters, spouses, freinds, and significant others, who unwittingly feed too much. You could come back to an ammonia spike and cloudy tanks.

She actually feeds the fish all the time. It's just the rest of the various work she doesn't know how to do.

But what you suggest is exactly what we do when we both go out of town.

thanks,
-Dennis (I've been signing 'Beefshank' huh? oops! )

It's been several days now, and my one little cory is doing really good! I've been changing 1 gal of water daily, and adding water from the main tank.

In the morning I leave till monday. But the tank is cycled, so he should be fine. When I get back, I will continue for several days with the water changes before I return him to his home.

I'll give an update when I get back.

thanks for all your help!

-Dennis

I returned the little cory to the big tank 3 days ago, and he is doing great!

I continued swapping out water from the big tank, and started doing 20% changes the last several days.

He seems fine, except for no barbels. I hope they grow back. After releasing him, it wasn't 30 seconds before I saw him swimming around in the shoal with the other corys!

Thank you all very much for the help! I guess it helps to add "REALLY" at the start of a post. I had a post before this called "Sick Bronze Cory" and it topped out at 5 posts. I started over, adding "REALLY" and it's up to 58 posts now I think!

But seriously, I do appreciate all the time people spent typing, especially Di and Untitled. You guys helped a lot. Thank you. (and the cory thanks you too! )

-Dennis

Its always great to hear a good ending. Thanks for the update. It helps us to help others when we get feedback, good or bad on how things went. Fish have an incredible will to live and will fight hard. Some can't or won't spend the money, or feel it is inhumane to push treatments when the odds are agaisnst them. But, alas! Another success story.

I'm REALLY glad (taking your advice here) that your other fish is doing great and is back with the others. That's excellent news!

All the best!

Don't wait - Do a partial water change of 20%, with gravel vac to pull out debris. Remove activated carbon and add the meds. Add the lesser dose of salt for electrolyte replacement. Even 1/3 dose will help. The slow dissolve is easy on them. Don't add the double dose of the one Maracyn, just dose them together as a single dose. I can't remember which one requires two tablets on the first day.

Don't hesitate to do supplemental salt dips - these can help.

Make sure that temp is just below 77F or you are aiding the infection. Bacteria such as columnaris can present itself in a myriad of ways including fin erosion, white slimey areas - sometimes bordered by lesions, fuzz, raise scales (locally), and much more. Such infections can move quickly into the blood stream and these fish have been battling something on and off for some time now.

Monitor ammonia daily, especially starting about 3 days into treatment, and through 3 days after completion.

I've heard of this happening before, but, I'm very sorry, and I don't know if there's much you can do for them. BUT! Because I believe there is ALWAYS hope, and since you really seem to want to help them, try:

Put them in a clean hospital tank, of course, and treat them with MelaFix, if the marks look like clear-ish lesions or some kind.

I hope it helps.

Also! The "melty" looking tail could be a result of water conditions, or the same as I mentioned above. Or fin rot, possibly. Secondly, is your gravel/ornaments sharp? Maybe they're hurting themselves on it and getting infected.

Last edited by smantzer at 03-Dec-2004 19:45

I've given the same advice to someone else here who has a problem (a different one, though) with his cories, I'll repeat it here.

I've had one sick cory a while ago whose colours started fading. Other than that he was alright, but his white patches grew larger everyday. Nobody was quite able to say what exactly it is. I figured out that it was due to a something that happened before I got it because three out of the cories I got from the same shop all died within one day after receving them and the symptoms started before they were introduced to my tank (still in the bag, that is) and my parameters were fine. I've tried medicating it with several medications to no avail. When everything seemed hopeless I decided to give the fish a salt dip treatment. Generally, cories are told not to be treated with salt at all as they can't take salt at all. In my research I found some cases of cories who were treated with salt which helped them. I decided to try this as it seemed as my last resort. I treated the fish and it showed a remarkable improvement almost instantly. I am happy that I decided to take the risk as I believe my fish would have died otherwise. I'd advise you to do the same thing as salt helps curing many problems with fish, and as you've already medicated and had no good results, maybe it's time to try something radical.

My method was to add 4 teaspoons of salt to a bucket of 1 gallon of aquarium water. I monitored the fish closely (to see that it's still swimming and not dying) and left it there for 30 mins. You can take it out sooner than 30 mins if you feel something is wrong. The fish will be stressed from being netted and being placed in a small bucket, but it's supposed to swim novertheless. As I said, my fish showed almost instant improvement. The spots became whiter, as if they were bleached -- I guess that whatever he was affected with died from the salt. In the next few days the colours gradually came back.

You mentioned in your first post that you separated the fish, so I assume you have a hospital tank. If you do, move your cories to the hospital tank (make sure it's clean, no gravel would be better) and treat the community tank. First of all, check your gravel. Is it coarse or sharp? If so, you might need to change it to round small gravel, as coarse/sharp gravel might cause the problem to their barbels (and then they become susceptible to other diseases). If it is of the right gravel for them, give it a serious cleaning (move rocks, driftwood, anything else you might have) as it might be dirty and became a host for colonies of bacteria which might harm your cories, as they are bottom dwellers. Change about 50% of the water as you clean the gravel. Then, according to what other fish you have in the tank, add some salt to the tank. This will disinfect the tank. You can also increase the temperature in that tank (again, according to what fish you have there). After 5 days do a 20% water change in the tank, repeat it on the sixth and seventh day and then you can return the cories to the main tank.

If you don't have a hosptial tank, just give your gravel a good cleaning, but don't add any salt and don't increase the temperature. Instead, make small daily water changes.

As for your cories, monitor their condition. If it improves, their barbels will slowly grow. Give them some quality live or frozen food (but not tubifex worms -- they're evil) for the week. Also make sure that they have somewhere to hide (a driftwood under which they can swim is good) as they will be stressed and will need the safety a hiding place gives them.

Again, most cory owners are against treating cories with salt. That's why it took me so long to finally treat my cory with salt and I only wished I had done it earlier when the white patches were small. This is only my recommendation according to my experience.

I hope your cories will be fine soon. Keep us posted!

Last edited by untitled at 04-Dec-2004 04:45

I have also treated tanks with cories in them with salt and the cories were fine, long term there may be a problem with cories and salt but as a treatment I personally think cories can handle it
Good luck with your guy!

I agree with salt treatment. However, the key is to raise salinity gradually. There are several ways to do it. Like mix the amount of salt you want and dissolve it in a bottle, then dribble some in over the course of a day. With cories, use less than full strength to see how they handle it, then see if you can push a little more the next day.

A second way to gradually raise the salinity and I recommend for cories, is to place salt like Doc Wellfish Freshwater Aquarium Salt in a small disposable glad container. Poke some small holes in the lid (so the sharp ends are into the container), then sink the container into the tank. You will see the salt slowly dissolving and it will probably take days for it to fully dissolve. With this in mind, you could probably put a full dose in the container. But if it were me, I would probably use 1 level Tablespoon per 5 gallons versus rounded tablespoons, as suggested on the package, with the cories. Use an actual measuring spoon as some spoons hold more than the measure. I would not recommend using an old butter container or similar because of soap or oil residue.

Second thought is to make sure that parameters in this tank are zero for ammonia and nitrite with all of the meds you have dosed. I recommend using a product like Prime, but be careful with dosing since it can deplete oxygen when first used. In a 10 gal tank, I would use 5 drops in the AM, then add another 5 drops in the PM for two days. I don't believe it will cause false ammonia readings as it has not for me when I was experimenting with it, but it can keep ammonia and nitrite down.

Thirdly, run activated carbon for a few hours to pull out all other meds then remove it. I would highly recommend switching to a combination of Maracyn (Erythromycin) and Maracyn-2 (Minocycline). These can be dosed simultaneously.

The slime you saw, could have also been the result of irritation from all of the medication. But, it could also be a sign of infection.

Keep the temp below 77F (like 75F) in case the slime you are seeing is columnaris. Try not to lower more than 1F every 12 hours, sometimes difficult with heaters. Otherwise, you'll risk Ich or velvet. Columnaris will spread faster and more swiftly at higher temps (77 and higher). Columnaris is the bacterial infection responsible for mouth fungus, saddleback lesions (which appear like film, sometimes bordered with a red line), fin degradation, and other cottony stuff sometimes confused with true fungus). It is highly contagious so don't share equipment between tanks and wash your hands thoroughly. The salt will help if it is columnaris.

Keep us posted on how things turn out. It's always a feeling of hopelessness, while such things are underway.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 04-Dec-2004 23:42

Thank you all very much for your repsonses. And Untitled, and Cory_Di, thank you for taking all the time to type out those posts. It certainly sounds like salt is the next thing to try. Unfortunetly, you have offered to VERY different aprouches to it including different water temps. So I'm not sure which to try. But let me update you, and maybe a agreement can be reached.

Some of this may be recap, but Ive typed so much over the last weeks, I can't really remember.

-there are 2 sick cories in a 10gal all by themselves. The healthy three are quarantined elsewhere, and seem fine. So I am ABLE to treat the whole tank.

-Before anybody responded, I started them on a treatment of Jungle's "Fungus Eliminator" which is safe for scaleless fish. I did underdose slightly. They are 2 days into the first 4 day treatment, and although I don't think I see any physical improvement, they are swimming around much more normally, grazing off the bottom. Before I added the stuff, the sickest one was laying still all the time, often almost laying on his side. So I take that as a good sign.

-I just tested ammonia, and it is between .25 and .5. I am out of nitrite tests, but will pick some up tonight, and report the reading later. I will also look for Prime.

-The tanks filter is running an empty filter bag, plus a sponge. And I have an airstone adding oxygen. I have lots of NIC, and have sponge filter media in my large tank ready to add to this one. But until meds are done, I guess it would just die off. And I did filter out all the meds from the first try last week. There were no meds in the tank for at least 3 days.

Ok, so I figure I should probably finish at least the first 4 day med cycle. If it's working, should I go for the second? Should I adandon the first?

A couple years ago, I added the proscribed amount of salt to a tank with one cory. And he never showed any signs of problems. He is in fact one of the three healthy ones! So based on my own experience, it shouldn't hurt them a healthy fish. But these aren't healthy. So, the advantage of "Untitled"'s version is it gets it over with quick. but Cory_Di's version adds it gradually....lol. Maybe these meds will work... .

So thats where we're at. Any more advice would be appreciated.

thanks,
-Dennis

Ok, NitrIte is between 0 and .5. And NitrAte is about 20, but the Nitrate is quite possibly left over from the original tank water.

-Dennis

Hi Dennis.

I'm glad to hear that your cories are doing better with the new mediaction. They sound like they're on the right track! If they are getting better, like it sounds, then the barbels will start growing very soon. The white slimey spots sounds a lot like what my cory had. It takes a while for them to completely disappear, but an improvement should be noticed quickly. Check out www.ecr-il.com/cory.jpg -- does it look like this? I'm still not sure what it was (some said fungus, some said bacteria, no medication helped anyway) but I'm sure that the salt helped it. It took the fish about 6 weeks to go back to his colours fully, but after treating with salt the white slimey patches became bleached-like white. I guess that whatever it was, fungus or bacteria, the salt killed it instantly.

But, first and foremost, you should do something about your ammonia and nitrites. Although I don't think they are the cause of the fish's illness, they probably don't contribute to their general well-being and they surely make it harder for them to get better. I would recommend adding AmQuel Plus to your tank. It will detoxify your ammonia and nitrites into a form that is non-toxic for the fish, but is still available for the bacteria. Your tests will still show presence of ammonia and nitrites in the water until they are consumed by the bacteria. Note that some ammonia test kits (those with Nessler reagents) will show false high levels of ammonia if using AmQuel. If your ammonia colour chart goes from yellow to green to the reds, it will probably work well. I think that AmQuel Plus is a good thing to have around. I sometimes have a minor ammonia spike after cleaning the tank, and using that helps the fish while the ammonia/nitrite are present in the tank.

There is a difference in Cory_Di's method and mine indeed. I have never given my cories (or any other fish) a salt dip because I still feel uncomfortable about using salt on a long term basis with my cories. This is of course due to the "no salt" approach to treating cories, and as I did use salt, salt baths might not harm them either. I just like to think that if they really do not tolerate salt that my method gets it over with quickly -- but it's up to you what you decide to go with. I'm sure both methods will do wonders for your fish.

I would still treat the cories with salt if I were you, although the medications seem to be working. I think it will boost their healing process, and I don't think it causes any harm. Personally, I try to avoid medications where I can as I think they weaken the fish (in the same way that they weaken us when we take them). It's not that I'm totally against it, but I use them very sparingly.

A final note about my method: the recommended level of salt for salt dips is usually 8 teaspoons per gallon. As we're dealing with Cories here, I've already decreased the level by half, so you needn't decrease it anymore.

That's it for the time being. I hope your fish will get better soon and please keep us posted. People hardly ever post when their fish are healthy again. It would be nice to know and it might help someone else in the future with similar problems.

I just fed them, and they both start cruisin' around lookin for food like they should, which again is much better than a couple days ago. But they still look the same.

I would say yes, it does look like that picture, but my cories are a much darker color, so the white areas are much more apparent.

There's already Amquel+ in the water. I've always added Amquel+ and NovAqua to my water when I do water changes. I take it thats not what you do? Well, even if my practices are wrong, the point is that for now, it's in there. So hopefully the ammonia is already de-toxified. Tomorrow they get a 25% water change according to the med instructions, so that will help more.

During the water change would also be a good time to try your salt dip. I like the idea that with your plan, it can be stopped just by putting them back in the 10 gal. However, as I said, I unknowingly kept 1 cory in a salt bath for a year, and he had no probelms. Still, I think I'll try your salt dip first. If it doesn't work, or if they revert back, I can still try a salt bath.

So thats my current plan. Thanks again for your time, I will keep you informed, and any more advice (like about using Amquel+ all the time) would be appreciated.

-Dennis

Ok, the salt dip is done. They both acted normal during it (except for being netted of course). I can't say the bad areas look like they are bleached white. But it looks more like the bad areas are actually smaller! Which is even better. I didn't get a real good look at them today before the salt (didn't want to turn on the light and stress them) so it is possible they already looked better. But whatever the reason, they are starting to look better.

After the salt dip, I did a 25% water change, and added the second does of "Fugus Eliminator". The instructions don't say anything about more than 2 doses, and they don't say to add carbon at the end of the second. So I guess I'm playin' it by ear from here on out.

I guess I'll see how they are doing after 4 days, and maybe then do Cory_di's approach.

Any suggestions on what should be done next? If I add carbon, and don't add salt, then they will be back in clear water again. Which is great, but I'm assuming they won't look "perfect" in four days.

thanks,
-Dennis

Hi Dennis,

No, I don't see a problem with you using AmQuel and NovAqua as your water conditioner. I use a different water conditioner and use AmQuel only when I detect ammonia or nitrites. If you use it constantly then I don't think you need to add anymore at the moment. Your ammonia/nitrites levels are low and were probably already detoxified by the AmQuel. If your other fish are behaving normally, then it means it has detoxified it. The fish gasp at the surface when the suffer from ammonia/nitrites, so if they don't, it means it's okay.

As for the fish in question, the improvement of my fish's health was the fastest during the first week. The patches got noticably smaller during that week and after about a week the improvement was slower, but still constant, and it might take a couple of months until they will look perfect again, but if things are on the right way, you will notice it. Other signs of improvement that can be detected is if the fish becomes more active (although mine wasn't lethargic before the treatment, it became more active after it), if they hide less and swim more, and their barbels should grow back slowly, so keep an eye on it.

As for what to do next, the first thing that I would do is to stop medicating. If the medication and/or the salt dip has helped, then it's now really a matter of giving them time to get back to their old selves. Any further medication won't really speed up the process. The decision whether to add salt to the water is yours, I don't think it will harm them, so I would go with it. Then, the next thing to do is basically give the fish a chance to heal. Get back to your routine and keep an eye on the fish. If they get better (even if it's a slow improvement), then nothing should be done any furhter, except of making sure your fish are living in a good environment. If everything is fine, the rest will be done by the fish.

As for the carbon, I'd put it back. I don't like my fish swimming in chemicals which I think are harmful for the fish in the long run.

That's it for now. Let us know how things are going.

Last edited by untitled at 08-Dec-2004 04:49

I do not plan to medicate more. But the med cycle is 8 days, with 2 4-day treatments, so I thought it best to finish the cycle. So on Friday, the carbon goes in.

I told you in the last post that the white areas faded a lot after the salt dip. Once I say them back in the 10gal tank, with the hood light on, I realized the change was not as drastic as I thought. But it is certainly looking better none the less.

So my next question is, if it might take several months for them to get back to normal, should they stay in the quarantine tank that whole time? I'm thinking that once they are seriously on the mend, they can go back in the big tank. But what is "seriously on the mend"? I'm sure they don't need to have big long barbels, but I suppose I need to wait until all the white areas are gone right? Otherwise they may carry the fungus back to the big tank. Right?

-Dennis

I'm glad it's looking better and I hope you will be able to see more progress in the next few days.

I am no expert, but I think that the the white areas are not the fungus itself but a reaction of the fish to the fungus. The medications and the salt dip should have killed the fungus leaving the area clean of infection and ready for the colours to come back. if the colours do come back then it means that you got rid the fungus and so the fish do not carry the fungus and can be returned to the main tank. You just have to be sure that this is the case before you put them back. If they areas are getting smaller and the barbels are growing back, it means that the fungus is gone and you can put them back. This should be visible within few days. If you ever had a fish with a fin rot then it's the same; once the fin rot has stopped the fins start growing soon after which means that problem is solved.

Once you put your fish in the main tank make sure that there is no ammonia or nitrites in the water and that the general water quality is good. This is important for their healing process. As cories are pretty timid you should also minimise stress. Providing a good hiding place is essential for cories. I have a driftwood which is partly elevated from the substrate and the area beneath it was claimed by the cories as their territory and they can swim under it whenever they want to get out of sight and feel secure. Another thing you should think about is your substrate. It should be small, the smallest the better, and round. Sharp gravel will wound their barbels. Large gravel allows uneaten food and fish waste to sink and that leads to a build up of waste which can decompose on which bad becteria can flourish and affect the cories.

One more thing which you can do to speed up the healing process is provide good food (frozen/live) more often. However, stay away from tubifex worms. I have only fed my fish with tubifex during one week because I couldn't find blood worms. It took me two months, serious medicating, a lot of hard work, and the loss of two fish to overcome this.

Sorry for my long posts and best wishes for your fish!

Golan.

I had one of my cories get some white fuzzy stuff on him. There was some on his side and a little on his fins. I can't remember the name of the med I gave him. There was a picture on the bottle though so I tried it. The problem was that it wasn't specific about how long to medicate it just said 10 drops per gallon (treats 250 gal.). I have a 50 gal tank so I added 40 drops per day until the bottle was empty. He got better quickly and has I believe fully recoverd. I did remove the carbon from the filters. I will try to get the name of the med and post it here.

Well, now they are NOT doing so good.

The white areas on the body of the "sickest" fish are all but gone. But I'm pretty sure the white area around his mouth is getting worse! It's certainly not getting better.

And the other fish, has got really bad tail rot just in the last day, but he doesn't have any white areas.

I think I will start the salt bath cory_di suggested, although the fin rot is new, and I don't know if salt bath is the answer to that.

I also finally purchased the meds everybody said I should use: Maracyn & Maracyn 2. I haven't added them yet. I'm gonna hold out for a while and see if anybody has new suggestions. So hopefully, "untitled" and some others will be around this evening to check this out.

Let me know what you think.

thanks,

-Dennis

I feel kinda stupid starting a new post about this, but I have a couple of sick corys, and one is looking really bad.

I started a thread about this a couple weeks ago, and have typed out a LOT of information since then, but sadly, have only gotten one response, and that was way back on the first day. If some people who know alot of fish illness could please read about them here:

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/50423.html?200412011646

Here are a links to a couple of pics of the sickest one. The first one was 4 days ago:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/Beefshank/newsickcory.jpg

and this one is today:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/Beefshank/anothersickcorypic.jpg

the white slimy spots are getting bigger, they are clearly (in person at least) sticking out from his body.

He looks in pretty bad shape, and it may be to late to save him, but there is another sick one that isn't nearly as bad, so I would really like to give him a chance.

I'm currently 2 days into treating with Rid-Ick, but it doesn't look like Ick anymore. They have already had fungal, and bacterial treatment, all the info in in the other thread.

I hope somebody can offer advice on proper treatment.

Thanks so much for you time.

-Dennis

Ok, I'll do as you suggest.

(I hope you guys don't think I'm just brainless and do whatever I'm told without thinking for myself. It's just that I am pretty new to this, and have NO experience with illnesses, so I figure I will just try what people suggest and watch what happens until enough time has passed that I have some EXPERIENCE of my own do draw from)

I do have a couple questions:

How often would you suggest salt dips? I really have no idea. Once a week? Once a month? Once a day? (I'm sure netting a sick fish over and over can't be good, so probably NOT once a day? )

Also, when you say to monitor ammonia levels, what should I do with the results? If I do a water change, I'll lose some of the meds. So just use Prime, or Ammo lock I'm guessing?

And finally, (I'm just trying to plan ahead here) if after the first 5 day cycle, I'm seeing improvements, should I do the second cycle? The instructions say, "repeat only once as needed" but what are some guidelines for what is needed?

Ok, thanks for the info, ( more is always welcome!) and I will report back soon.

-Dennis

Hi Dennis,

Sorry to hear that your fish are actually doing worse.

I don't think anybody thinks your brainless. We all learnt and still learn the same way, by being given advice from people whom we don't even know. The important thing is to judge the information you're given based on the knowledge you already have, common sense, and the reasoning given. Another thing to remember is that we don't share the same resources. For instance, we don't get Maracyn here in the UK, so I can't recommend something I have never used or even seen and I won't recommend something which I know you can't get.

I give my fish a salt dip only when needed, and that's something you have to judge for yourself. In my opinion, if a fish is making a good progress, there is no need to give salt dip. I give salt dips when I first notice a problem and then I wait for a couple of days to see how the fish reacted to the salt dip.

The need to check the ammonia levels while medicating is because the medications might kill off some (or all) of your good bacteria, and you want to know that when it happens. If Maracyn contains chemical dyes such as methylene blue, acriflavine, malachite green, or potassium permanganate, you shouldn't use AmQuel as it will interfere with their performance. I am not sure about Prime, but I think it basically works in the same way that AmQuel Plus does, but try to find information on the bottle itself.

As for all the questions regarding Maracyn, I'll leave it up for someone else to reply as I am not familiar with it.

Sorry I can't help you this time...

Many people here in the US by-pass salt dips, once common in aiding fish health in times of need. That is because of the availability of antibiotics. However, I think there is some merit to using salt dips when a fish's wounds or lesions are really bad. 1) It helps restore electrolytes, and 2) Most infections, fungus and parasites are hindered by it. Care must be taken with any scaleless fish, and yes, netting is traumatic and raises stress. This is why I like putting a small amount in the aquarium, at least to cover lost electrolytes when fish have skin or fin problems.

Maracyn = Erythromycin
Maracyn 2 = Minocycline

These are the active ingredients - no methyl blue, acriflavine or other stuff.

Have you had a mini-cycle lately? I'm involved in so many threads, I can't recall if you were one of them. If so, we probably want to avoid antibiotic, but there is risk to the fish. A mini-cycle would be defined as having anything other than zero for ammonia or nitrites. Antibiotics will further hinder the biofilter trying to recover and expose your fish to more ammonia or nitrite.

Have you had any luck getting Jungle Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food? Can't recall if we discussed this and can't go back and read the whole thread. This is an alternative, but I would dose melafix and pimafix simultaneously while feeding this. It contains a furanoid type antibacterial (like an antibiotic) and a sulfa type of antibiotic. This is excellent as it will help with any infection that has gone inward and the packaging indicates it is also for external infections. It needs to be purchased from Petsmart as no other stores have it at this time, according to Jungle. You can also purchase it from them online.

[link=Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food]http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441806679&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030134&bmUID=1102935609866" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

I should add that if you elect to do any additional salt dips, make sure you are storing your net in a hyper-salinated solution. Take a container large enough to house the net in and put several tablespoons of aquarium salt. It works best to use hot water to dissolve the salt first and the heat will help sterilize the net too. Dirty nets and microscopic scrapes inherent to netting are a key method of disease transfer.

The other thought is to quarantine all sick fish into a single container if you have the equipment and use the Maracyn's there. You can use a 10+gallon rubber maid bin, with a small amount of gravel (only necessary with cories who like to sift), fake plants/caves, 25w heater, airstone, airline, check valve, airstone and an airpump. Transfer the fish with enough of their own water to fully cover them without depleting 25-30% of original tank water. Replace the main tank's water with same temp water, then add small amounts of same temp replacement water to the cory bin every half hour until full. Because the bin is plastic, put a 25w heater in a glass bowl or object so it doesn't make contact with plastic. Visitherm makes the easiest to control 25w heater. Some are almost impossible to turn and run the danger of overheating the water because you can't sense you are turning them. Put a lid on. Dose the cory bin with Prime or Amquel (+), just the normal dose otherwise you'll deplete oxygen and add more a few days later.

Yes, it dilutes the antibiotic to do water changes, but ammonia and nitrite can kill. The water change I suggested was for the first day. This helps with water quality to aid treatment, but also dilutes free-floating bacteria in the water column.

It comes down to choices, so you have several. Keep us posted on how things go.

Both of you, thanks for your replys.

Cory_Di, I understand completely that you can't go back and re-read every thread. So let me quickly recap the situation.

There are 2 sick bronze corys, and they are alone in a 10 gal tank. IT has a full-blown hang on the back filter (without carbon in it) and a heater, and an airstone. It is a actual glass aquarium, not plastic. It has smooth gravel, fake plants, and fake caves.

The current temp is 78f (I'm bringing it down slowly, as you suggest).

The current water reading are:
ammonia:0
Nitrite: 0-.5
Nitrate: 30

I know the nitrates are a little high. But I was actually quite surprised by these readings. This tank was set up for these corys, and meds were added almost imediately. I never actually expected it to cycle. But it looks like it may be about to finish! I did add NIC just in case, so I guess it's working. I'll add some more, and try to finish it. I really figured any good bacteria would be killed by the meds. In any case, there is Amquel in the water, so that should be helping a little with any high levels.

Yesterday afternoon I added the small comtainer with salt in it. It is still disolving. And last night I added the Maracyn, and Maracyn 2. With only one pill of the maracyn 2. I don't have anything to report yet. The fish are in their cave, and I can't see them.

So thats it. I guess I could have pretty much summed up this whole post by saying that these fish are ALONE and suggestions can be designed for the whole tank without concerns for other animals.

thanks,
-Dennis

HI Dennis,

Just keep an eye on the ammonia/nitrite levels and note again, that you may see a false-positive ammonia reading from the Amquel (+). When I experienced it, the reading was very high and off the chart, so if you see that, don't assume you have ammonia.

Keep checking those ammonia and nitrite readings daily and, if needed twice daily. I know this is a lot of work, but if you should see either one creeping up, it may require a good water change of about 30% or 3 gallons (exact temp) and preconditioned. I find that keeping water jugs pre-filled is good.

I do hope you are lowering that temp slowly. We wouldn't want it to go from 78 to say, 75 in a matter of hours or it could bring on ich. Rather, aim for about a degree per 12 hours, if your heater will allow it.

Don't worry about diluting meds with water changes if you see ammonia or nitrites. The more important thing is to keep them free of irritation from these toxins, otherwise they will stress. Do the water change right before adding a dose.

I should mention too that the salt you added will help them with the nitrites. Salt reduces nitrite uptake into the bloodstream.

If at any point you should find your ammonia and or nitrite out of control (water changes every day not working), then add activated carbon, stop medicating, and add NIC again. No sense saving them from infection while killing them with natural toxins.

Feel like a chemist yet?

Thanks Di,

I forgot to mention in my last post that I will go to PetCo and look for the special food.

I will watch the levels closely, and do what is needed.

Do you have any advice on my question of how to know if the second 5-day cycle of meds is needed or not? Is it only if they show NO improvment? Should I stop if they are just starting to get better, or should I do it unless I see massive improvement? What do you think?

I actually felt the most like a chemist when I was doing my fishless cycle on my 60gal a few months ago. Just a huge bubblin' tank of water, some power cords, and test tubes! LOL

-Dennis

I wouldn't redose unless you see improvement of like 50%, but it's still not gone. If you are 80-90% there, then followup with Melafix/Pimafix for a while to let the tank's bio-filter rest and watch carefully. Any regression backwards, then do the second dose.

That med is only available at Petsmart, not Petco. For whatever reason, Jungle has only initiated sales at Petsmart to start. I confirmed that with an email from them, but got no explanation as to why the sales are not broader. Maybe they only had a limited supply and wanted to try it for a while to see how it would sell before making it a mass market thing.

Yeah, PetSMART, thats what I ment. I just typed it wrong.

As for the second dose, are you saying that if the improvement is LESS than 50% then DON'T re-dose? IF thats what you ment, then what should I do if there is little, to no improvement?

thanks again,

-Dennis

Let's wait and see what happens, maybe that is the best approach. How many days are left - 3? How are they looking? Any improvement? How is the water quality?

Ok, today I added the 4th dose. So tomorrow is the last dose.

The fish with mouth fungas looks pretty much the same. There might be a slight improvement. The fish with tail rot looks worse. His tail is almost gone! The rest of him looks fine, maybe a little bit slimy, but this has been here the whole time they have been quarantined. They seem to be hiding more than before, but that certainly could be because I'm sure the meds don't make them feel really good. Or it could be another symptom.

I bought both the anti-bacterial and anti-parasite food. I am gonna crush some up and give it to them in a little bit.

Current water readings are:

ammonia: 0
nitrite: .25-.5 (.375 I guess?)
nitrate: 15
temp: 76

It's interesting that that last little bit of nitrite hasn't gone away yet. But there is Amquel+ in the water, so that should be handling it. I still think the levels are quite good considering I started with an un-cycled tank with meds in it!

By the way, I am using the AP master test kit that has 2 drop bottles for ammonia, and it is supposed to give accurate readings on ammonia even with amquel, or AmmoLock type products in the water.

I have about 9 gallons in the tank, and have been changing 1 gallon every day, before I add the meds.

So if the tail rot is my guide, then so far the meds aren't helping. These are bacterial meds, and before this I used the Jungle anti-fungas meds. I'm running out of illnesses to cure!

So that's where we're at here. I report more tomorrow.

thanks,

-Dennis

Dennis, we may need to really keep working through the water quality issue. Stress levels have everything to do with a fish's ability to fight illness. Antibiotics only give it a boost, but the fish himself has to do the work. If anything at all is stressing him, then he can't fight off what ails him.

We need to get that nitrite under control. Finish day 5 so you have one round done. I would run activated carbon on day 6 for about 4 hours (I know, a waste of a good cartridge), then remove it and dose melafix and pimafix (if you have it), from here on out. These will not hinder the biofilter, but will continue to work as mild antiseptics. Pimafix is the better of the two, IMHO, but AP says they can be dosed together for more stubborn cases. I would work with the antibacterial food, not the antiparasitic food. I don't know that these two should be dosed simultaneously - I've not seen Jungle recommend that. This will give their immune systems a boost from within without fouling the water.

I have a personal belief that Pimafix puts fish on a relaxing high (removes stress factor), but that is just a suspicion. My fish seem to mellow when it is in the tank. I use it in place of melafix when fish have been fighting and have scales missing and abrasions. Darn white clouds are worse than cichlids

Other key factors:

Temp must be below 77F or mouth fungus/columnaris will move faster.

Use a water conditioner that removes Heavy metals (check the label of the one you use as it may). Copper, iron and other metals if coming from your water source, can hinder their ability to get well.

Get the nitrites down. Use New and Improved Cycle. NIC is better at getting nitrites down than ammonia, if I recall.

Remind me about filtration in this tank and how long it has been up and running?

Got a pH tester? Is it a high range, low range, or a broader range? If you find it on the high or low side of a regular tester, follow up with either the high or the low pH tester to make sure it hasn't exceeded the range.

One last thing - the mouth thing, do you actually see fuzz? Or, is it more slimey, filmy, etc? The reason I ask is that it could be irritation from toxins and chemicals. These fish have been through many treatments.

Make sure you are not completely diluting the salt. If you dropped a container in there, it should take from 2-3 days to fully dissolve. Add just a little more after every few days of water changes. Fish will take less nitrite into the bloodstream when salt is in the water. This is very important. So, we have a side benefit to the salt, besides its ability to restore electrolytes and make bacteria less happy.



Last edited by Cory_Di at 16-Dec-2004 20:46

Ok, on Saturday, I can run the carbon, and dose the pima and melafix. I will also only use the bacterial food.

The tank is below 77, it's 76. But I admit thats pretty close. I'll bring it down another degree or 2.

My current water conditioners are Amquel+ and NovAqua. I am not home right now and can't read if they treat metals or not. If not, I will try to find another. Any recommendations?

I'll add some NIC tonight, and again Saturday. But I am curious about this. I am new to hospital tanks, but wouldn't there almost always be ammonia and nitrites in them? They are usually set up when needed, and most meds kill off the good bacteria anyway. I would assume it's really hard to cycle a hospital tank. I thought my levels were pretty good considering. No? In any case, I will try to finish the cycle.

The tank has been up and running for at least a month now. But it had a different filter at first. I changed it to a Tetratec PF150 power filter on Nov.30. And added NIC at the time. The filer holds 2 carbon filter elements, and a sponge. I am running 1 filter element without the carbon, and the sponge, and when I need to, I add carbon into the second slot. The filter is adjustable, and I have it running about as slow as I could get it. Which is still pretty fast on a 10gal tank.

I have a regular, and high PH tester. I will test tonight when i get home and post.

I would say the mouth is more slimy/flimy. But the area has major tissue lose. Not only the barbels, but the area that they connect to (like it's overhanging upper lip) is gone. My catfish now has what looks like a regular fish mouth (he still seems to be eating with it without problem though). But it's been like this since the first post. The tissue loss happened really fast at the beginning. I have no idea if this can ever grow back, but the surrounding area has the same white film that was all over his sides (still has one spot on his side).

By the way, the fish with the tail rot, was actually quarentined because it looked like he too was losing his barbels. But now, a month later, his barbels look fine, but his tail is gone.

I wish I could get good pictures, but my stupid auto-focus camera always focuses on the glass!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/Beefshank/anothersickcorypic.jpg

This is the same pic from the first post. This is the fish with the mouth problem. In this pic, you can see his missing barbels and lip. If you look closely, you can see a slightly lighter area moving back from his mouth for a short distance (it stops about half way to his eyes) This area is now even lighter, much lighter. IT appears to be the same color as the patches on his sides. But because it's not on a flat surface, it's hard to tell what it is. But it's been like this for probably 2 weeks now. In the pic, you can also see white areas obviously sticking out from his side. The white areas now appear more flat against his body. That at least, looks better.

I will add a little more salt after water changes.

Ok, I think thats everything you asked about.

Thank you again for taking the time to read all this, and then type out so much info! I really appreciate it.

-Dennis

Last edited by Beefshank at 17-Dec-2004 01:24

Last edited by Beefshank at 17-Dec-2004 01:25

Hello again Dennis,

The missing bit really worries me. It sounds more like a serious wound rather than barbel erosion. I have used Melafix but not Pimafix in the past and had good results with fish wounds and finrot (I use it at half the recommended dose, though), so I think you should try it as well, and although I have never used Pimafix, it sounds good to me if it give the fish some good time...

I think you can stick to AmQuel + NovAqua. NovAqua, according to the manufacturer detoxifies heavy metals. They claim it does lots of other little wonders as well which are good for you, like reducing the toxicity of nitrites, and increasing available Electrolytes, but again, I have never used it so I don't have an opinion, although I trust Kordon -- they seem to be the only manufacturer who gives so much information about their products.

(A general side note about using AmQuel: Kordon say on their website that AmQuel stays in the water until it is being used up to detoxify ammonia, nitrites, etc. AmQuel also reduces the amount of oxygen in the water. As you use it on a regular basis, it might lead to a build up of AmQuel in your water which can reduces oxygen levels on the long run -- which can be stressful for your fish. If you don't usually use activated carbon, I think you should add it to your filter for a while several hours after topping up your tank with new water to filter out anything that has not been used up for detoxification)

On top of Cory_Di's advice, if it netting the fish is not too stressful for them (which might be with cories), I would give another salt dip when you finish with the medications. I don't think it will harm them and it can might boost their healing process.

I wonder if anybody has an experience with Formalin as I don't, but when I was looking into my fish's problem I read that netting the fish and applying some formalin on the infected areas, or giving a formalin dip can be very useful in fighting fungus and other diseases. It would have been my next step, I guess, but I never got that far. This is not a recommendation as I have never used Formalin before, but you can look for some more information or maybe someone who's reading this has any experience with it and would like to comment.

As for the hospital tank, what I do to avoid having to cycle it everytime is having two guppies there at all times. They can be removed to the main tank when the tank needs to be used for sick fish, although I keep mine there. They are quite hardy fish and mine don't seem to be affected by anything. If you don't want to keep your hospital tank running when you're not using it to treat fish, just put the filter media in your other tank to keep the bacteria going.

There seem to be more posts here about cories than any other fish, and it looks like the cause of the some of the problems has something to do with how the fish were handled before we got them. I myself had lost three cories which had something before they arrived at my place. Four out of five fish I bought at the same time were already dying in the bag when I got home from the shop, three died within a day and the fourth is the one that survived and that also took a long time. Another problem is with transporting cories -- they sometimes get stuck in the corners of the bag when we take them home which may damage them. When and if you buy your next cories, ask the salesperson to put the bag upside down in another bag so there will be no corners for them to be trapped in. I now found a shop with healthy fish (didn't lose any of the fish I bought there) and they double bag the cories without me even having to ask for it. I have a look at the fish in other shops I go to, and there always seem to be several poor-looking cories around...

Sorry about the long post,
Golan.

Last edited by untitled at 17-Dec-2004 04:09