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Hi Dennis,

No, I don't see a problem with you using AmQuel and NovAqua as your water conditioner. I use a different water conditioner and use AmQuel only when I detect ammonia or nitrites. If you use it constantly then I don't think you need to add anymore at the moment. Your ammonia/nitrites levels are low and were probably already detoxified by the AmQuel. If your other fish are behaving normally, then it means it has detoxified it. The fish gasp at the surface when the suffer from ammonia/nitrites, so if they don't, it means it's okay.

As for the fish in question, the improvement of my fish's health was the fastest during the first week. The patches got noticably smaller during that week and after about a week the improvement was slower, but still constant, and it might take a couple of months until they will look perfect again, but if things are on the right way, you will notice it. Other signs of improvement that can be detected is if the fish becomes more active (although mine wasn't lethargic before the treatment, it became more active after it), if they hide less and swim more, and their barbels should grow back slowly, so keep an eye on it.

As for what to do next, the first thing that I would do is to stop medicating. If the medication and/or the salt dip has helped, then it's now really a matter of giving them time to get back to their old selves. Any further medication won't really speed up the process. The decision whether to add salt to the water is yours, I don't think it will harm them, so I would go with it. Then, the next thing to do is basically give the fish a chance to heal. Get back to your routine and keep an eye on the fish. If they get better (even if it's a slow improvement), then nothing should be done any furhter, except of making sure your fish are living in a good environment. If everything is fine, the rest will be done by the fish.

As for the carbon, I'd put it back. I don't like my fish swimming in chemicals which I think are harmful for the fish in the long run.

That's it for now. Let us know how things are going.

Last edited by untitled at 08-Dec-2004 04:49

I do not plan to medicate more. But the med cycle is 8 days, with 2 4-day treatments, so I thought it best to finish the cycle. So on Friday, the carbon goes in.

I told you in the last post that the white areas faded a lot after the salt dip. Once I say them back in the 10gal tank, with the hood light on, I realized the change was not as drastic as I thought. But it is certainly looking better none the less.

So my next question is, if it might take several months for them to get back to normal, should they stay in the quarantine tank that whole time? I'm thinking that once they are seriously on the mend, they can go back in the big tank. But what is "seriously on the mend"? I'm sure they don't need to have big long barbels, but I suppose I need to wait until all the white areas are gone right? Otherwise they may carry the fungus back to the big tank. Right?

-Dennis

I'm glad it's looking better and I hope you will be able to see more progress in the next few days.

I am no expert, but I think that the the white areas are not the fungus itself but a reaction of the fish to the fungus. The medications and the salt dip should have killed the fungus leaving the area clean of infection and ready for the colours to come back. if the colours do come back then it means that you got rid the fungus and so the fish do not carry the fungus and can be returned to the main tank. You just have to be sure that this is the case before you put them back. If they areas are getting smaller and the barbels are growing back, it means that the fungus is gone and you can put them back. This should be visible within few days. If you ever had a fish with a fin rot then it's the same; once the fin rot has stopped the fins start growing soon after which means that problem is solved.

Once you put your fish in the main tank make sure that there is no ammonia or nitrites in the water and that the general water quality is good. This is important for their healing process. As cories are pretty timid you should also minimise stress. Providing a good hiding place is essential for cories. I have a driftwood which is partly elevated from the substrate and the area beneath it was claimed by the cories as their territory and they can swim under it whenever they want to get out of sight and feel secure. Another thing you should think about is your substrate. It should be small, the smallest the better, and round. Sharp gravel will wound their barbels. Large gravel allows uneaten food and fish waste to sink and that leads to a build up of waste which can decompose on which bad becteria can flourish and affect the cories.

One more thing which you can do to speed up the healing process is provide good food (frozen/live) more often. However, stay away from tubifex worms. I have only fed my fish with tubifex during one week because I couldn't find blood worms. It took me two months, serious medicating, a lot of hard work, and the loss of two fish to overcome this.

Sorry for my long posts and best wishes for your fish!

Golan.

I had one of my cories get some white fuzzy stuff on him. There was some on his side and a little on his fins. I can't remember the name of the med I gave him. There was a picture on the bottle though so I tried it. The problem was that it wasn't specific about how long to medicate it just said 10 drops per gallon (treats 250 gal.). I have a 50 gal tank so I added 40 drops per day until the bottle was empty. He got better quickly and has I believe fully recoverd. I did remove the carbon from the filters. I will try to get the name of the med and post it here.

Well, now they are NOT doing so good.

The white areas on the body of the "sickest" fish are all but gone. But I'm pretty sure the white area around his mouth is getting worse! It's certainly not getting better.

And the other fish, has got really bad tail rot just in the last day, but he doesn't have any white areas.

I think I will start the salt bath cory_di suggested, although the fin rot is new, and I don't know if salt bath is the answer to that.

I also finally purchased the meds everybody said I should use: Maracyn & Maracyn 2. I haven't added them yet. I'm gonna hold out for a while and see if anybody has new suggestions. So hopefully, "untitled" and some others will be around this evening to check this out.

Let me know what you think.

thanks,

-Dennis

I feel kinda stupid starting a new post about this, but I have a couple of sick corys, and one is looking really bad.

I started a thread about this a couple weeks ago, and have typed out a LOT of information since then, but sadly, have only gotten one response, and that was way back on the first day. If some people who know alot of fish illness could please read about them here:

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/50423.html?200412011646

Here are a links to a couple of pics of the sickest one. The first one was 4 days ago:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/Beefshank/newsickcory.jpg

and this one is today:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/Beefshank/anothersickcorypic.jpg

the white slimy spots are getting bigger, they are clearly (in person at least) sticking out from his body.

He looks in pretty bad shape, and it may be to late to save him, but there is another sick one that isn't nearly as bad, so I would really like to give him a chance.

I'm currently 2 days into treating with Rid-Ick, but it doesn't look like Ick anymore. They have already had fungal, and bacterial treatment, all the info in in the other thread.

I hope somebody can offer advice on proper treatment.

Thanks so much for you time.

-Dennis

Ok, I'll do as you suggest.

(I hope you guys don't think I'm just brainless and do whatever I'm told without thinking for myself. It's just that I am pretty new to this, and have NO experience with illnesses, so I figure I will just try what people suggest and watch what happens until enough time has passed that I have some EXPERIENCE of my own do draw from)

I do have a couple questions:

How often would you suggest salt dips? I really have no idea. Once a week? Once a month? Once a day? (I'm sure netting a sick fish over and over can't be good, so probably NOT once a day? )

Also, when you say to monitor ammonia levels, what should I do with the results? If I do a water change, I'll lose some of the meds. So just use Prime, or Ammo lock I'm guessing?

And finally, (I'm just trying to plan ahead here) if after the first 5 day cycle, I'm seeing improvements, should I do the second cycle? The instructions say, "repeat only once as needed" but what are some guidelines for what is needed?

Ok, thanks for the info, ( more is always welcome!) and I will report back soon.

-Dennis

Hi Dennis,

Sorry to hear that your fish are actually doing worse.

I don't think anybody thinks your brainless. We all learnt and still learn the same way, by being given advice from people whom we don't even know. The important thing is to judge the information you're given based on the knowledge you already have, common sense, and the reasoning given. Another thing to remember is that we don't share the same resources. For instance, we don't get Maracyn here in the UK, so I can't recommend something I have never used or even seen and I won't recommend something which I know you can't get.

I give my fish a salt dip only when needed, and that's something you have to judge for yourself. In my opinion, if a fish is making a good progress, there is no need to give salt dip. I give salt dips when I first notice a problem and then I wait for a couple of days to see how the fish reacted to the salt dip.

The need to check the ammonia levels while medicating is because the medications might kill off some (or all) of your good bacteria, and you want to know that when it happens. If Maracyn contains chemical dyes such as methylene blue, acriflavine, malachite green, or potassium permanganate, you shouldn't use AmQuel as it will interfere with their performance. I am not sure about Prime, but I think it basically works in the same way that AmQuel Plus does, but try to find information on the bottle itself.

As for all the questions regarding Maracyn, I'll leave it up for someone else to reply as I am not familiar with it.

Sorry I can't help you this time...

Many people here in the US by-pass salt dips, once common in aiding fish health in times of need. That is because of the availability of antibiotics. However, I think there is some merit to using salt dips when a fish's wounds or lesions are really bad. 1) It helps restore electrolytes, and 2) Most infections, fungus and parasites are hindered by it. Care must be taken with any scaleless fish, and yes, netting is traumatic and raises stress. This is why I like putting a small amount in the aquarium, at least to cover lost electrolytes when fish have skin or fin problems.

Maracyn = Erythromycin
Maracyn 2 = Minocycline

These are the active ingredients - no methyl blue, acriflavine or other stuff.

Have you had a mini-cycle lately? I'm involved in so many threads, I can't recall if you were one of them. If so, we probably want to avoid antibiotic, but there is risk to the fish. A mini-cycle would be defined as having anything other than zero for ammonia or nitrites. Antibiotics will further hinder the biofilter trying to recover and expose your fish to more ammonia or nitrite.

Have you had any luck getting Jungle Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food? Can't recall if we discussed this and can't go back and read the whole thread. This is an alternative, but I would dose melafix and pimafix simultaneously while feeding this. It contains a furanoid type antibacterial (like an antibiotic) and a sulfa type of antibiotic. This is excellent as it will help with any infection that has gone inward and the packaging indicates it is also for external infections. It needs to be purchased from Petsmart as no other stores have it at this time, according to Jungle. You can also purchase it from them online.

[link=Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food]http://www.petsmart.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441806679&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302023693&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302030134&bmUID=1102935609866" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

I should add that if you elect to do any additional salt dips, make sure you are storing your net in a hyper-salinated solution. Take a container large enough to house the net in and put several tablespoons of aquarium salt. It works best to use hot water to dissolve the salt first and the heat will help sterilize the net too. Dirty nets and microscopic scrapes inherent to netting are a key method of disease transfer.

The other thought is to quarantine all sick fish into a single container if you have the equipment and use the Maracyn's there. You can use a 10+gallon rubber maid bin, with a small amount of gravel (only necessary with cories who like to sift), fake plants/caves, 25w heater, airstone, airline, check valve, airstone and an airpump. Transfer the fish with enough of their own water to fully cover them without depleting 25-30% of original tank water. Replace the main tank's water with same temp water, then add small amounts of same temp replacement water to the cory bin every half hour until full. Because the bin is plastic, put a 25w heater in a glass bowl or object so it doesn't make contact with plastic. Visitherm makes the easiest to control 25w heater. Some are almost impossible to turn and run the danger of overheating the water because you can't sense you are turning them. Put a lid on. Dose the cory bin with Prime or Amquel (+), just the normal dose otherwise you'll deplete oxygen and add more a few days later.

Yes, it dilutes the antibiotic to do water changes, but ammonia and nitrite can kill. The water change I suggested was for the first day. This helps with water quality to aid treatment, but also dilutes free-floating bacteria in the water column.

It comes down to choices, so you have several. Keep us posted on how things go.

Both of you, thanks for your replys.

Cory_Di, I understand completely that you can't go back and re-read every thread. So let me quickly recap the situation.

There are 2 sick bronze corys, and they are alone in a 10 gal tank. IT has a full-blown hang on the back filter (without carbon in it) and a heater, and an airstone. It is a actual glass aquarium, not plastic. It has smooth gravel, fake plants, and fake caves.

The current temp is 78f (I'm bringing it down slowly, as you suggest).

The current water reading are:
ammonia:0
Nitrite: 0-.5
Nitrate: 30

I know the nitrates are a little high. But I was actually quite surprised by these readings. This tank was set up for these corys, and meds were added almost imediately. I never actually expected it to cycle. But it looks like it may be about to finish! I did add NIC just in case, so I guess it's working. I'll add some more, and try to finish it. I really figured any good bacteria would be killed by the meds. In any case, there is Amquel in the water, so that should be helping a little with any high levels.

Yesterday afternoon I added the small comtainer with salt in it. It is still disolving. And last night I added the Maracyn, and Maracyn 2. With only one pill of the maracyn 2. I don't have anything to report yet. The fish are in their cave, and I can't see them.

So thats it. I guess I could have pretty much summed up this whole post by saying that these fish are ALONE and suggestions can be designed for the whole tank without concerns for other animals.

thanks,
-Dennis

HI Dennis,

Just keep an eye on the ammonia/nitrite levels and note again, that you may see a false-positive ammonia reading from the Amquel (+). When I experienced it, the reading was very high and off the chart, so if you see that, don't assume you have ammonia.

Keep checking those ammonia and nitrite readings daily and, if needed twice daily. I know this is a lot of work, but if you should see either one creeping up, it may require a good water change of about 30% or 3 gallons (exact temp) and preconditioned. I find that keeping water jugs pre-filled is good.

I do hope you are lowering that temp slowly. We wouldn't want it to go from 78 to say, 75 in a matter of hours or it could bring on ich. Rather, aim for about a degree per 12 hours, if your heater will allow it.

Don't worry about diluting meds with water changes if you see ammonia or nitrites. The more important thing is to keep them free of irritation from these toxins, otherwise they will stress. Do the water change right before adding a dose.

I should mention too that the salt you added will help them with the nitrites. Salt reduces nitrite uptake into the bloodstream.

If at any point you should find your ammonia and or nitrite out of control (water changes every day not working), then add activated carbon, stop medicating, and add NIC again. No sense saving them from infection while killing them with natural toxins.

Feel like a chemist yet?

Thanks Di,

I forgot to mention in my last post that I will go to PetCo and look for the special food.

I will watch the levels closely, and do what is needed.

Do you have any advice on my question of how to know if the second 5-day cycle of meds is needed or not? Is it only if they show NO improvment? Should I stop if they are just starting to get better, or should I do it unless I see massive improvement? What do you think?

I actually felt the most like a chemist when I was doing my fishless cycle on my 60gal a few months ago. Just a huge bubblin' tank of water, some power cords, and test tubes! LOL

-Dennis

I wouldn't redose unless you see improvement of like 50%, but it's still not gone. If you are 80-90% there, then followup with Melafix/Pimafix for a while to let the tank's bio-filter rest and watch carefully. Any regression backwards, then do the second dose.

That med is only available at Petsmart, not Petco. For whatever reason, Jungle has only initiated sales at Petsmart to start. I confirmed that with an email from them, but got no explanation as to why the sales are not broader. Maybe they only had a limited supply and wanted to try it for a while to see how it would sell before making it a mass market thing.

Yeah, PetSMART, thats what I ment. I just typed it wrong.

As for the second dose, are you saying that if the improvement is LESS than 50% then DON'T re-dose? IF thats what you ment, then what should I do if there is little, to no improvement?

thanks again,

-Dennis

Let's wait and see what happens, maybe that is the best approach. How many days are left - 3? How are they looking? Any improvement? How is the water quality?

Ok, today I added the 4th dose. So tomorrow is the last dose.

The fish with mouth fungas looks pretty much the same. There might be a slight improvement. The fish with tail rot looks worse. His tail is almost gone! The rest of him looks fine, maybe a little bit slimy, but this has been here the whole time they have been quarantined. They seem to be hiding more than before, but that certainly could be because I'm sure the meds don't make them feel really good. Or it could be another symptom.

I bought both the anti-bacterial and anti-parasite food. I am gonna crush some up and give it to them in a little bit.

Current water readings are:

ammonia: 0
nitrite: .25-.5 (.375 I guess?)
nitrate: 15
temp: 76

It's interesting that that last little bit of nitrite hasn't gone away yet. But there is Amquel+ in the water, so that should be handling it. I still think the levels are quite good considering I started with an un-cycled tank with meds in it!

By the way, I am using the AP master test kit that has 2 drop bottles for ammonia, and it is supposed to give accurate readings on ammonia even with amquel, or AmmoLock type products in the water.

I have about 9 gallons in the tank, and have been changing 1 gallon every day, before I add the meds.

So if the tail rot is my guide, then so far the meds aren't helping. These are bacterial meds, and before this I used the Jungle anti-fungas meds. I'm running out of illnesses to cure!

So that's where we're at here. I report more tomorrow.

thanks,

-Dennis

Dennis, we may need to really keep working through the water quality issue. Stress levels have everything to do with a fish's ability to fight illness. Antibiotics only give it a boost, but the fish himself has to do the work. If anything at all is stressing him, then he can't fight off what ails him.

We need to get that nitrite under control. Finish day 5 so you have one round done. I would run activated carbon on day 6 for about 4 hours (I know, a waste of a good cartridge), then remove it and dose melafix and pimafix (if you have it), from here on out. These will not hinder the biofilter, but will continue to work as mild antiseptics. Pimafix is the better of the two, IMHO, but AP says they can be dosed together for more stubborn cases. I would work with the antibacterial food, not the antiparasitic food. I don't know that these two should be dosed simultaneously - I've not seen Jungle recommend that. This will give their immune systems a boost from within without fouling the water.

I have a personal belief that Pimafix puts fish on a relaxing high (removes stress factor), but that is just a suspicion. My fish seem to mellow when it is in the tank. I use it in place of melafix when fish have been fighting and have scales missing and abrasions. Darn white clouds are worse than cichlids

Other key factors:

Temp must be below 77F or mouth fungus/columnaris will move faster.

Use a water conditioner that removes Heavy metals (check the label of the one you use as it may). Copper, iron and other metals if coming from your water source, can hinder their ability to get well.

Get the nitrites down. Use New and Improved Cycle. NIC is better at getting nitrites down than ammonia, if I recall.

Remind me about filtration in this tank and how long it has been up and running?

Got a pH tester? Is it a high range, low range, or a broader range? If you find it on the high or low side of a regular tester, follow up with either the high or the low pH tester to make sure it hasn't exceeded the range.

One last thing - the mouth thing, do you actually see fuzz? Or, is it more slimey, filmy, etc? The reason I ask is that it could be irritation from toxins and chemicals. These fish have been through many treatments.

Make sure you are not completely diluting the salt. If you dropped a container in there, it should take from 2-3 days to fully dissolve. Add just a little more after every few days of water changes. Fish will take less nitrite into the bloodstream when salt is in the water. This is very important. So, we have a side benefit to the salt, besides its ability to restore electrolytes and make bacteria less happy.



Last edited by Cory_Di at 16-Dec-2004 20:46

Ok, on Saturday, I can run the carbon, and dose the pima and melafix. I will also only use the bacterial food.

The tank is below 77, it's 76. But I admit thats pretty close. I'll bring it down another degree or 2.

My current water conditioners are Amquel+ and NovAqua. I am not home right now and can't read if they treat metals or not. If not, I will try to find another. Any recommendations?

I'll add some NIC tonight, and again Saturday. But I am curious about this. I am new to hospital tanks, but wouldn't there almost always be ammonia and nitrites in them? They are usually set up when needed, and most meds kill off the good bacteria anyway. I would assume it's really hard to cycle a hospital tank. I thought my levels were pretty good considering. No? In any case, I will try to finish the cycle.

The tank has been up and running for at least a month now. But it had a different filter at first. I changed it to a Tetratec PF150 power filter on Nov.30. And added NIC at the time. The filer holds 2 carbon filter elements, and a sponge. I am running 1 filter element without the carbon, and the sponge, and when I need to, I add carbon into the second slot. The filter is adjustable, and I have it running about as slow as I could get it. Which is still pretty fast on a 10gal tank.

I have a regular, and high PH tester. I will test tonight when i get home and post.

I would say the mouth is more slimy/flimy. But the area has major tissue lose. Not only the barbels, but the area that they connect to (like it's overhanging upper lip) is gone. My catfish now has what looks like a regular fish mouth (he still seems to be eating with it without problem though). But it's been like this since the first post. The tissue loss happened really fast at the beginning. I have no idea if this can ever grow back, but the surrounding area has the same white film that was all over his sides (still has one spot on his side).

By the way, the fish with the tail rot, was actually quarentined because it looked like he too was losing his barbels. But now, a month later, his barbels look fine, but his tail is gone.

I wish I could get good pictures, but my stupid auto-focus camera always focuses on the glass!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/Beefshank/anothersickcorypic.jpg

This is the same pic from the first post. This is the fish with the mouth problem. In this pic, you can see his missing barbels and lip. If you look closely, you can see a slightly lighter area moving back from his mouth for a short distance (it stops about half way to his eyes) This area is now even lighter, much lighter. IT appears to be the same color as the patches on his sides. But because it's not on a flat surface, it's hard to tell what it is. But it's been like this for probably 2 weeks now. In the pic, you can also see white areas obviously sticking out from his side. The white areas now appear more flat against his body. That at least, looks better.

I will add a little more salt after water changes.

Ok, I think thats everything you asked about.

Thank you again for taking the time to read all this, and then type out so much info! I really appreciate it.

-Dennis

Last edited by Beefshank at 17-Dec-2004 01:24

Last edited by Beefshank at 17-Dec-2004 01:25

Hello again Dennis,

The missing bit really worries me. It sounds more like a serious wound rather than barbel erosion. I have used Melafix but not Pimafix in the past and had good results with fish wounds and finrot (I use it at half the recommended dose, though), so I think you should try it as well, and although I have never used Pimafix, it sounds good to me if it give the fish some good time...

I think you can stick to AmQuel + NovAqua. NovAqua, according to the manufacturer detoxifies heavy metals. They claim it does lots of other little wonders as well which are good for you, like reducing the toxicity of nitrites, and increasing available Electrolytes, but again, I have never used it so I don't have an opinion, although I trust Kordon -- they seem to be the only manufacturer who gives so much information about their products.

(A general side note about using AmQuel: Kordon say on their website that AmQuel stays in the water until it is being used up to detoxify ammonia, nitrites, etc. AmQuel also reduces the amount of oxygen in the water. As you use it on a regular basis, it might lead to a build up of AmQuel in your water which can reduces oxygen levels on the long run -- which can be stressful for your fish. If you don't usually use activated carbon, I think you should add it to your filter for a while several hours after topping up your tank with new water to filter out anything that has not been used up for detoxification)

On top of Cory_Di's advice, if it netting the fish is not too stressful for them (which might be with cories), I would give another salt dip when you finish with the medications. I don't think it will harm them and it can might boost their healing process.

I wonder if anybody has an experience with Formalin as I don't, but when I was looking into my fish's problem I read that netting the fish and applying some formalin on the infected areas, or giving a formalin dip can be very useful in fighting fungus and other diseases. It would have been my next step, I guess, but I never got that far. This is not a recommendation as I have never used Formalin before, but you can look for some more information or maybe someone who's reading this has any experience with it and would like to comment.

As for the hospital tank, what I do to avoid having to cycle it everytime is having two guppies there at all times. They can be removed to the main tank when the tank needs to be used for sick fish, although I keep mine there. They are quite hardy fish and mine don't seem to be affected by anything. If you don't want to keep your hospital tank running when you're not using it to treat fish, just put the filter media in your other tank to keep the bacteria going.

There seem to be more posts here about cories than any other fish, and it looks like the cause of the some of the problems has something to do with how the fish were handled before we got them. I myself had lost three cories which had something before they arrived at my place. Four out of five fish I bought at the same time were already dying in the bag when I got home from the shop, three died within a day and the fourth is the one that survived and that also took a long time. Another problem is with transporting cories -- they sometimes get stuck in the corners of the bag when we take them home which may damage them. When and if you buy your next cories, ask the salesperson to put the bag upside down in another bag so there will be no corners for them to be trapped in. I now found a shop with healthy fish (didn't lose any of the fish I bought there) and they double bag the cories without me even having to ask for it. I have a look at the fish in other shops I go to, and there always seem to be several poor-looking cories around...

Sorry about the long post,
Golan.

Last edited by untitled at 17-Dec-2004 04:09