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Hi all,

I seem to have developed a problem in my tank that is wiping out my Rummy Nosed Tetras. Out of a school of 9 (which have been together for about 4 months now) I have at least 4 deaths and 2 MIA’s (it’s a large VERY heavily planted tank so I’m assuming they are also dead but haven’t been able to find the body.

The last one I found today floating was quite swollen, I placed the body on some kitchen towel and gently pressed the stomach, basically it exploding into a mush of yellow mucus and some blood. It would seem to be some type of internal problem that’s turning the fishes gut to liquid.

The fish show little or no outward symptoms, and whatever it is seems to strike lightning fast. The first time I noticed something amiss a few days ago, one rummy had what seemed to be a lot of white on his face. This was not the kind of normal fading you would expect with a distressed rummy, nor was it any kind of fungus, it literally look like part of his face had been bleached, very bright while parts surround by red healthy parts. Apart from that the fish seemed normal, was active and ate. Being a worrier I kept a close eye on the tank, I saw this one fish swimming across the tank and then , wham, it was like he’d been shot by a sniper , suddenly stopped and floated to the top dead, not a mark on him. Since then I’ve lost at least one a day, and this morning I found 2 dead. When I checked last night all these fish were the epitome of rummy health, big bright noses and that nice green sheen that very healthy rummies have, and were eating like fools. This morning dead.

To sum up I’m dealing with something internal. Something that is very fast. Rummies are great indicator fish, and if they are stressed about anything , they show it very quickly and clearly. Even the dead fish I found had bright red noses ! I’m sure if they were in any discomfort in the days leading up to their death they would have shown it, they were active and eating up to the last so it has to be something that kills quickly. So far limited to the rummies.

No other fish affected, all look, act and eat normally. Water seems to be normal, never missed a water change.
PH 6.8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 15ppm
Temp 29oC.

Any ideas on diagnosis or treatment welcome.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Tell me what other species are in the tank...

--garyroland.

Gary,

Other species,
2-spot Gourami,Angelfish,SAE,,Blue Ram,Dwarf Gourami,Hengali Rasbora,Neon Dwarf Rainbowfish,Black Mollies,Platies.

Should also add I found another floater yesterday evening. I did a quick DIY post mortem. Same as previously, very healthy looking on the outside, green body, red nose, no sores or any any other indications on the outside. Stomach was swollen with gas/air, but not sure if this is a result of being in the water dead for a couple of hours. Sliced open the body from the bottom, inside mainly mush/mucus could only find one organ intact (no idea which one, possibly heart), the flesh surrounding the gut area seemed healthy and silverish white.

This tank has been set up about 8 months. The only problem so far was a bout of camallanus 3 months back.I did see one Rainbow yesterday not looking comfortable, when I checked he had a worm dangling from the vent. Strange thing was the worm was not red, but clear/transparent, there was no swelling or redness on the vent. Really it looked like a dead camallanus. I checked all fish thorughly and no signs of infection, this was a couple of hours of checking (trying to get a look at a fishes does not get easier with practice!). All active, look healthy and eating like monsters.

[span class="edited"][Edited by bensaf 2004-08-23 21:19][/span]

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

An interesting scenario...

But, as you probably already know, Rummynose Tetras are the first to react to adverse water quality while other species couldn't care less.

"Adverse" being primarily nitrates. Rummies just can't stand nitrates, but sadly I don't have the top limit of irritation to the fish before they die.

I thought you had posted 30ppm of nitrates but now I only see 15ppm in the list.

30ppm of nitrates doesn't even put a dent in the other species you list but I have a feeling your nitrates have a great deal to do with the sudden deaths of the Rummies.

Test your tap water for nitrates. There may have been a surge of nitrates in your last water change that affected the Rummies enough to kill them.

For now, and if your tap water doesn't test out for nitrates, do some small and frequent partial water changes to reduce the nitrates to a happy level of at least 10ppm or lower.

If you're concerned about worms, take a razor blade and slice open the belly of the dead fish and observe.

Let me know.

--garyroland.

[span class="edited"][Edited by garyroland 2004-08-24 10:39][/span]

Thanks Gary,

I think maybe you were posting your reply while I was editing mine. I did slice open one of the dead fish and no sign of worms.

Nitates have never got close to 30ppm. Every single test I have ever done gives exactly the same result 15ppm. The tank is extremely well planted so nitrates usually under control.

It's possible you may be onto something with the water. I am currently living in Indonesia, the tap water here can be a little variable, let's just say I wouldn't dare drink it. I have tested it for Nitrates and it reads about 8ppm.This may be why my readings are constant 15ppm even with the amount of plant life in there. Example: I had to postpone this weeks water change by 1 day because Sunday morning the only thing coming out of the taps was a rich brown color]:|. Having said that the rummies started dropping on Friday evening, the last water change was the previous Sunday.

In the meantime, I haven't dosed any meds and won't do so until I have a handle on what's going on. I did my re-scheduled weekly 30% water change last night. I'll wait to see if that helps the remaining rummies, if not I'll go with the smaller frequent changes.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

It's tough to medicate when no signs of disease are evident...

If bacteria was the problem the other species would be affected to some degree.

A virus is always possible that only attacked the Rummies but I would suspect the virus would spread to the other species.

Brown water can indicate an excess of tannins. There are certain tannins that fish cannot tolerate in large amounts and death would be the result for sensitive fish to poor water quality like Rummies.

--garyroland.

[span class="edited"][Edited by garyroland 2004-08-24 10:50][/span]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the help. I'm pretty much baffled. At this stage there is very lttle I can do. Another floating Rummy this morning. Same scenario, fit as a flea yesterday evening.So in a few days a healthy school of 9 that were spawning last week are pretty much wiped out with only 1 left.

Still no signs in other fish, all very active, eating well, full colors. If anything I would say they all look healthier then they ever have, brightly colored (most were bought as juvies and are now reaching maturity), rainbows sparking and in constant display node,Mollies and platies getting their groove on as usual, Gouramies poking around every inch of the tank, SAE's munching machines and the Angelfish is positively glowing. Even the rummies looked great right up to the moment they dropped dead !

I am beginning to believe there is something in the water that is not agreeing with the rummies. Although I mentioned the rummies were fine for a few days after the last water change, after checking my log I did add a couple of gallons of water to top up evaporation just before they started dropping. It is the dry season here at the moment, we haven't had rain in weeks and there is a drought and water shortages across Java at present. Lord only knows what kind of "goodies" are in the water at the moment. Never sure what causes the occassional brown water we get, mud, rust or possibly tannins, has a definate earthy/musty smell to it.

As the rummies have been wiped out I'll just monitor the other fish for the moment. If after a few weeks their is no syptoms in the other fish and the water tests out ok I'll give the rummies another shot, I miss having them school around, they were a particular favorite.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Only one species of fish being affected usually denotes that species could not tolerate whatever was in the water...

I suspect tannins because:

"Tannins negatively affect an animal's feed intake, feed digestibility, and efficiency of production. These effects vary depending on the content and type of tannin ingested and on the animal's tolerance, which in turn is dependent on characteristics such as type of digestive tract, feeding behavior, body size, and detoxification mechanisms."

Perhaps bottled water, if available, should be used when the tap supply to top off is polluted.

--garyroland.

Thanks Gary,

Unfortunately there seems to be no way to tell if the water is "off" unless it is discolored, in which I don't use it until water supply returns to "normal" whatever that is here. Usually I don't worry about the water supply, while I wouldn't drink it the fish always seemed to love it. Being in the tropics I have natual tropical water coming from the tap ! It's soft and acidic and almost identical temp to the tank (no hot or cold faucets here !). Losing a new fish, while seemingly relatively common elsewhere, is a complete rarity to me.

I have one other theory which you may be able to give an opinion on. Could oxygen, or lack of be a factor here ? The only serious problem I had before was some months back when the filter crashed causing a massive bacterial bloom, which in turn starved the tank of oxygen. While the other fish pulled thru unharmed the entire school of rummies at the time suffocated very very quickly. So they would seem to be more pone to oxygen deficiency problems then others. I don't run air stones and have the absolute minimum of surface agitation to conserve CO2 for the plants. As you can see my temp is pretty high, 29oC. Obviously I don't use a heater living here, my main problem is keeping the temp down ! As it's been getting hotter lately I've been running air conditioner and have a large fan running over the tank. But even with that the temp has creeped up from an average of 28o to 29o and on occassion in the past few days almost hit 30o. As warmer water holds less oxygen and the rummies in the past would SEEM susceptible to oxygen problems wondering if this could be a factor and the other fish can cope? I should also add that I have never seen other fish gasping at the surface, but then again rummies are reluctant to head anywhere near the surface at the best of times ! As a precaution I have added a power head on one side of the tank with a venturi attachment to improve circulation and add some additional oxygen.

EDIT: I don't supplement with additional CO2.

[span class="edited"][Edited by bensaf 2004-08-24 22:59][/span]

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Remember that the exchange of gases take place at the surface of the water...

Concentrate on moving the surface, not the deeper tank water.

All fish will gasp at the surface when dissolved oxygen becomes a problem. Many will gasp at the surface when ammonia becomes a problem also.

If none of the causes I mentioned apply, then bacteria, a type the Rummies did not have an immunity to, killed them.

When one of a species survives, that individual did possess the required immunity.

--garyroland.

Gary,

Thanks for the help and patience, much appreciated

Well the final remaining Rummy seems to be hanging on in there. Everyone else still fine. The one left is the sole survivor of the filter crash, I've had about 6 months, and I got 8 others to bring her school back up. The 8 rummies that expired in the past few days are from that batch (bought together). It would seem this survivor is either a tough lady or did indeed have a immunity the newer group did not possess !

I'll give it a couple of weeks and get some companions. Nothing sadder looking then a lone Rummy looking for a school to join.

Thanks again.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.