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i know how you feel smantzer i had 3 neon tetras die under the same symptoms (they were doing summer saults too)

I LOVE MY 55GALLON REEF!!!!!

No more guessing Smantzer.

Since this thread started alot of trying to diagnose and help has been given with new facts being supplied by you that could alter anyones advise.

If you had mentioned early on the problems with pH and kH and that you use a water softener alot of time could have been saved. Maybe a fish or two also.

I wish you luck and I would advise you not to get anymore new fish until you learn how to regulate the water conditions better.

Listen to Frank, Bob and untitled, they will certainly guide you in the right direction.



Take Care..

Alright, well, it may have been the chloramines afterall. I think the last few fish that died were just the aftermath of the poisoning.

No more dead today!! yaaaay! And my little baby angels are trying to swim today... so cute.

I'm going to watch it for another week before restocking, and I'll do that veeeery slooowly.

Thanks so much for your help EVERYONE!!

Smantzer...

Yur problems could be what you mentioned in the Water Quality Forum. I am going to defer to the fella's in the Water Quality Forum for now. Bob, untitled and FRANK are very knowledgeable when it comes to water quality. I know my stuff too but they phrase the wording much better than I could. You threw me off from the get go when you mentioned "seizures". It immediately led me in the wrong direction. Guess I have spent too much time away from the Hospital Forum. (Or I am just plain outdated in my thinking)

I'd say we now know what part of your problem is but you have to find the cause. You need to identify why your pH has bottomed out on such a new tank. In an older tank I would suspect Old Tank Syndrome. You say this tank has only been set up since December though. I find it hard to believe that it is your initial water supply since this is water that has been treated at a water treatment
facility.

One thing you need to do immediately is test the water out of the tap for pH, kH, gH and ammonia. You need to determine if the problem is with the water before it goes into the tank or after it is in the tank. Test your water but also there should be someone on duty at the water treatment facility that you could talk to regardless of the day or time. There has to be someone there monitoring the operations all the time. Try contacting them and asking what the levels of pH and kH are in the treated water. If the phone number is not in the phone book call your local police department (non-emergency phone number) and ask them for the number. They should have it readilly available.

You also need to determine if the slide downward of your pH happens suddenly or gradually. Gradually and the fish would appear lethargic, you would likely see deterioration of fins and they would start to die off slowly. If it is sudden and the change extreme you could see what you have been. Sudden erratic behavior and death.

Report back to the boys in the Water Quality Forum with what you find. They will certainly get you straightend out. I'll watch what transpires.

-- I already run on carbon.]

How old is your carbon? If you leave carbon in your tank too long before replacing it, it can leach back into your water and poison the fish



Last edited by TigerAngel at 20-Feb-2005 05:21

I think I would give it a bit longer. Make sure you track down what is killing every thing first then make sure it is well sorted out before putting any more fish in. These things have a terrible habit of rearing there ugly heads again just when you think it has gone and have restocked if you have not pin pointed the problem and sorted it out 100%. I once had an internal bacteria in my tank I thought I had sorted it out and all the fish that was going to die had died but not to long after I restocked bang it hit again.

http://www.greenspersonalprinting.com/

Thank you.. I'll call tomorrow, because I just got home, and they probably aren't open right now to calling.

I don't see anymore deaths or spasms. The babies are growing quickly and I'm hatching BBS for them as we speak My tank is very empty without half the fish. I'll give it a week after everyone stops dying before buying new fish.

Check with you city and see if they have done something different to the water in the area. I know small towns/cities like I currently live in get their water primarily from the larger city (houston) and that at times that have to add some other chemical to combat something you may not know is going on. For instance at times they add charcoal to the final cleansing part to remove some odd odor that has popped up. The water purification plants must, and I repeat must keep records of what is happening. (I did security at one for quite sometime and got to know what all is going on)

Worst comes to worst you are going to need to buy bottle spring water and do a 50% water change using this. I know this can be expensive, but if the city says/claims they haven't done anything recently to the water this is your last resort. I would add some Stress Coat to the tank either way, as this will add some of the beneficial slime back to the poor babies.

I wish you the best of luck, and let us know...Heidi

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Wow Tammy! That would be freaky (I HATE bugs). Anyway... I havent added new plants, new rocks... I HAVE changed their food recently, because my LFS didn't have the usual. I'm feeding them TetraMin PRO Tropical Crisps now... hmm. Also, my amquel is new.

I just gave an overgrown pleco to my LFS a while ago, I don't know if he'll be too keen on housing my fish there again, but if I have to, I will. Again, thank you so much everyone.

Something that I have noticed is an especially low pH and NO KH, low GH-- I posted about it under water quality.

Last edited by smantzer at 19-Feb-2005 15:23

Smantzer...

Great thought Tessa. It is something that has been added to the water only recently.

I am so very sorry this is still happening.

I have only ever advised this a couple of times but I have a feeling you are going to have to take drastic measures.

If you can rule out high levels of chloramine, ammonia, nitrite, nitrates and high fluctuations of pH then this is going to get complicated. Test your water straight out of the tap for ammonia. Have you changed their diet at all over the last week or two? New food that you were not previously using? I'm wondering about contaminants in the food source. I don't believe this is a disease. I HAVE to believe this is a toxin of some sort. The Amquel or Novaqua, either of these bottles new? You aren't using fertilizers of any kind are you?

If you can, call your local fish store and explain to them what is happening. If they can give you insight and help, great, if not you may have to do the dreaded strip the tank and start over routine. Ask them if they can house your fish. Without knowing for sure what is happening you need to get those fish out of that water. It may end up that you have to completely strip down the tank, sterilize everything that was in it and set it back up.

I'm not saying this is what is happening in your tank, I am just letting you know of an experience I had. One time a very long time ago I had something like this happen. It was not good. I know what you are feeling. In my case it was a case of a bug larvae that got into the water, I suspect when I was adding live plants. I had unexplained deaths happening right and left. I probably lost close to 30 fish over a one week period of time. I tried everything to figure out what was going on and I was doing a water change and vacuuming the gravel when I noticed a bug on the sand. It took us a couple of days to identify what it was but it was a Whirligig Beetle. After much research we found that the larvae of the Whirligig Beetle feeds on fish by first injecting the fish with a poison that liquifies their organs and then the larvae will suck out the juices. They leave no marks. The fish would go from appearing perfectly normal when you look at them and dead five minutes later. They also left no marks on the fish.

I have to go to work but you hang in there. I'll check back later. Anyone else that has insight please jump in to this thread.

Last edited by Tammy at 19-Feb-2005 12:11

You have not added any new rocks have you? Only I did that once and two days late I was having the same sort of problems. I could not work it out at first then it hit me as soon as I took the new rocks out every thing went back to normal with in a few hours. Its just a thought.

http://www.greenspersonalprinting.com/

Well, as much as I wished this was resolved... more fish are still dying. Yet, my most sensitive (a few apistos, baby angels and some otos) are doing fine.

Is it possible the others are still dying because of the chloramine that got into their systems? I guess if they're already infected, no amount of water changes and de-chlorination will fix it, huh?

Thanks so much for the help though, everyone. Most than half my tank is dead now, but... umm, look on the bright side... now I can buy new fish...! ...yeah...(once they all stop dying, that is)

EDIT: Tammy, yeah, that is odd, that there's no ammonia. But, as it turns out, I'm not 100% sure if it's the chloramines anymore... seeing as I'm still losing fish...

ALSO. If either of the parent angelfish died, what would I do with the babies? Both of the parents seem to be doing great (by some kind of miracle!), but, just incase...

Last edited by smantzer at 19-Feb-2005 11:37

I had 4 mystery deaths of silver tip tetras lately-- but I blamed it on aggression within the school (they often strike at each other).

Then today, I witnessed my dojo loach falling onto his side and back and twitching. A few minutes later, he was back to normal.

A golden wonder killifish did the same thing. Swam around on its back and sides, then went back to normal.

Now I'm wondering if my tetra "mystery" deaths are to blame on this, too.

I have some very expensive and very cherished fish in there, and I'd like to know what I can do! What IS this? I've never seen it before.

Smantzer...

Sorry this happened and sorry if I led you astray worrying you about your heater. When you initially were talking fish appearing to have seizures I felt it had to be one of two things. Electrical current in the water or a toxin of some kind.

I think you hit the nail on the head about the chloramines now though after reading some articles on it.

I am so sorry for your losses but I thank you for the knowledge I gained about the chloramines.

I hope the rest of your fish are doing better.

One thing though... it seems odd to me that if there was such a high concentration of chloramines in the water then you would have gotten some detection of ammonia present wouldn't you?

Depending on where you live your local water utility may have a web site where you can log in to see such things as ph, hardness, alkalinity, conductivity, chlorine residue. They also will say wiether chloramine or chlorine is used. If no web site is present call them and request the information. They will usually have this info on hand because some industries will need this info. You can also use this info to cross reference your tank water especially if your using rocks, decor or additives to alter the water. Keep in mind that the numbers in the distribution system may vary because of detention time and mixing in the system.

I checked the bodies carefully-- I held two killifish in nets (in the water) while they died, looking to see if I could see *any* external signs... but I saw nothing.

I'm pretty sure my pH hasn't swung about, same for KH and all that... 0 ammonia and nitrite, below 20 for nitrate.

I'm thinking it may be chloramines. For the water conditioner I use, it says to add twice as much to neutralize chloramines, and I never did that before. Now, maybe the water company started adding it.

Since I added double treatment, I havent seen any more spasms. I'll keep an eye on it. (I can see my baby angel's eyes now!! )

Last edited by smantzer at 18-Feb-2005 17:26

Still sounds like something environmental, but just for the heck of it, please check the bodies of any fish having these spasms or of fish that die. Look carefully at the base of the pectoral fins to see if there is any blood pin points, or streaks on the underside. Look at the eyes for unusual redness and at the vent for blood.

While the symptoms don't exactly match what is below, lets go through it anyway.

Have you gotten zero for ammonia and nitrite?

What is your pH?

Can you check your kH so we can see if pH is possibly swinging around?

In light of what Openwater suggests how much of each conditioner are you adding and what does it say for chloramine. With Amquel, you could get a false positive for ammonia.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 18-Feb-2005 16:00

I don't know what's going on!! I replaced the heater, did a 50% water change-- I already run on carbon. I use novaqua and amquel with all water changes and keep the temperature balanced.

All of my killifish (4) are dead. I only have 3 tetras (out of 8) left. My loach is dead, too, and my apistogramma cacautoides isn't looking good. My apistogramma borelli died (precious fish to me ), and now I fear for my angelfish's babies (they're free swimming now).

Five minutes ago the last killifish died. Here's a detail of what's going on:

They seem fine, and then suddenly they swim really fast, barrel roll, seem to have difficulty swimming. It's all so sudden. It's like fits where their swim bladder isn't working, so they can't control if they go on their back, if they're on top or on the bottom of the tank... sometimes, they snap back to normal, only for it to happen again. Other times, it kills them almost immediately. It almost looks like heart attacks, because they gasp very deeply to breathe.

All I use is novaqua and amquel. I use nothing else. I run Top Fin filters, it's a planted tank. Since the tank has been set up, looking at the top of the tank, it's like there's a film... it isn't solid though like has been described before. It's still liquid, but it looks kind of like oil does on the road... that iridescent sort of sheen. I never knew what it was and couldn't get rid of it (my filters run on highest setting), but I figured it wasn't hurting anything, but now that everyone's dying...

Please, all suggestions are gold!!

Last edited by smantzer at 18-Feb-2005 15:41

Smantzer...

No I don't have any pictures of what the heater would look like with moisture inside, sorry. It would be evident though. If you saw a heater where the seal was broken and water had gotten in, you would know it.

Please tell us everything that you use to treat the water with including any supplements you use once the water is in the tank.

Just a thought,

When you do your waterchanges and use your conditioner, does it treat for both cholrine and choloramine.
On some dual conditioner you have to double the dose for choloramine when using conditioner than you do for chlorine. As some people have the dual-conditioner and only use the half dose to treat for chlorine while infact choloramine is being used to treat the water. In such cases of this the chloramine posion can sometimes cause such reactions.

It may be a good idea to do a 50% water change and run carbon. Make sure water is precise tempature and close to tank paramemters.

Last edited by openwater at 17-Feb-2005 23:30