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i posted earlier http://www.fishprofiles.com/interactive/forums/thread.asp?id=42982

anyway.. things are really bad i have 4 fish left in my whole tank and my butterfly fish is the one im most worried about at the moment...
he has become really lethargic and wont eat. His fins are clamped and his feelers have almost fully disappeared. He has a white film over his eyes as well..
i dont know what to do!
i did a 50% water change tuesday to try and flush the chemicals out and then i added half a tablet of triple sulpher (i have a 20g tank so this is a weak dose) as not to overdose them again but treat them..
i dont know what else to do to stop him from dying! im so desperate.. any ideas please!!
ive heard adding salt to the tank helps to purify the water?

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

I checked back to your other post...

Nothing has changed the situation and the problem remains that somehow you poisoned the fish either with an overdose of med or the med was bad.

You mentioned starting over and I would say that's a good idea. Sometimes there's just no reversing severe damage to the fish.

--garyroland.



[span class="edited"][Edited by garyroland 2004-07-14 20:52][/span]

Look, you stated that your ammonia was "mid-range" at one point in the other thread. Can you quantify the ammonia value?

Is it possible the ammonia rose while you were away? Was someone feeding the fish for you (sorry if you mentioned it, I didn't read the entire post)? They may have overfed. Typically, I pre-ration my food and hide the rest. If ammonia was up for a day or two even, then you could be looking at effects of ammonia.

Regardless of how it happened, ammonia burns can appear to be infection. Not saying that it is not an infection going through your tank, but many fish cannot handle ammonia. Eye cloudiness is one symptom of ammonia burn and it will clear with water that has 0 ammonia and nitrites for a couple of weeks. Lesions, excess mucous and I would imagine, even rotting skin.

If ammonia is up, it can stress the fish and lower their immunity. So, if one fish had an infection, like a columnaris infection, it could spread. Ditto for aeromonas infections.

First order of the day is to get the ammonia and nitrites to zero and keep it there, even if you need to do water changes twice daily. "Mid-range" is not acceptable for any fish that is not cycle hardy, which yours are not.

If something is rotting in the tank - clumps of food, algae wafer, dead fish, etc., can really make it rise.

There is a product on the market now called Amquel Plus. This may cause false positive ammonia readings on your tester so if you choose to use it, check ammonia before adding and a couple hours later. YOu may see a huge spike, but this will be a false reading. It could be 7-10 days before you can get a true ammonia reading again, but it will convert the ammonia from a toxic form to a less toxic form. It can bring down nitrites and nitrates as well. It won't starve off the good bacteria, but will control things until the bacterial colony is up and functioning again. Very Important for Using Amquel Plus: It will choke out some of the o2 in the first couple of hours. This means, if you can't drop and extra airstone or two in there, don't dose it. It will smell like sulfur - this is normal. Follow directions carefully and do not overdose this stuff. Hopefully, this link works. It is the product data sheet on Amquel (+): http://66.218.71.225/search/cache?p=amquel+plus+and+kpd-79&u=www.aquavet.com/kpd79.htm&w=amquel+plus+and+kpd+79&d=41524200A4&c=482&yc=55161&icp=1

I had to take the cached version.

See how that does

[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-07-14 22:15][/span]

Ok - just looked closer at effects of ammonia. This comes from Dieter Untergasser's book, Handbook of Fish Diseases:

Ammonia poisoning shows up at a level of 0.3 mg/L as skin and nerve damage. Hemorrhages first show up on the gills, then on the epidermis and internal organs.

Note the 1 mg/L = 1ppm

pH has a bearing on toxicity. It is more toxic in alkaline waters and less toxic in acid waters.

I was trying to find where I saw ammonia can cause temporary cloudy eye, but cannot find it at the moment. All I recalled was that it clears up on its own when the problem has been rectified.

thanks for your quick replies...
ive been checking my ammonia every 2nd day and have been adding chloromon to the water to combat its rising which has been working so far. ive heard triple sulpher also mkaes your ammonia levels rise. i did purchase an ammonia wheel earlier however i dont think it is working and i dont know why!
im really hoping it is ammonia poisonoing as you said cory-di as you say this can be fixed (hopefully in time!)
unfortunately the only test kit i dont have at the moment is nitrite! will be out tonite to purchase one though!
ive been adding cycle to the tank which is suppose to balance the nitrite and ammonia in the tank.

The 50% water change i did would have cleaned most of the gravel. i have had one fish go missing while i was away, my female bristlenose so i dont know if that was sucked up on a water change or what cos i havent seen it since ive been back ....

i will go home tonite and check the ammonia and let you know how that goes.
Cory-Di do you know if AmQuel is available in Australia?
i havent heard or seen it before ?

also as ive added the triple sulpher will that be harming my fish further and should i do a further water change tonite?
and will adding salt to the tank help or cause more harm?

Once again thanks for all your help!!

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

I'm not so sure your fish are sick, so maybe we should hold off on tri-sulfur. Your ammonia will not rise the very next day after over-cleaning or even one day after antibiotic treatment. There would be a few days lag. Most antibiotics won't cause a rise in ammonia until well toward's the end of treatment and even a day or two after it is done.

So, if the ammonia showed up that quickly after you were back, something went wrong while you were away to drive it up. Was the bristlenose "missing" when you got back? If so, it may have expired in the tank while you were gone, easily causing your ammonia spike. Removal of his rotting remains and a series of 25% water changes spaced either one day apart or twice daily (less stressful on fish than a single 50% change) would help. You can easily do 25% changes daily until things get back on track. I find it hard to believe that your gravel vac would cause that kind of ammonia spike, unless you are running an undergravel filter. If that is the case, then it never should be cleaned at 100%, rather in sections. Also, if you have a UGF, could the BN be under the plate?

Ammonia test kit is one of the most important to have. While nitrites can spike, more often than not it is preceded by an ammonia spike. I check daily when medicating and during times when I suspect an ammonia spike could happen.

I'm not sure if Amquel Plus is available in AUS. Let's get the latest ammonia reading, and nitrite reading to see where you are at. If what you are seeing in your fish is the result of chemical burns, hopefully, you will see healing take place in time. Don't be alarmed if you see blackness in the fins or on the body. When tissue is healing it will often turn black first. It is a good sign and will disappear on its own. I purchased new goldfish which came from a tank that had nitrates in excess of 300ppm . They had slightly eroded fins. Within days, I panicked when their fins turned black at the edges. I later read, that when water quality improves, this can occur.

Keep the med on hand tho and yes, I would add some salt. But, since you may have some sensitive fish like cories in the tank and, possibly a still-living bristlenose, they don't much like salt, but can tolerate it in lower doses. Adding it slowly makes them even more tolerant of it. I would predissolve just 1/3 dose in a cup and keep dribbling the solution in all day. This gradually raises the salinity. My thinking is that it will help with electrolytes lost through open wounds, will be soothing, and if nitrites are even slightly elevated, will help the fish by reducing nitrite uptake into the bloodsream.

If you add any med to the tank at all, consider Melafix and, if you can find it in AUS, PimaFix. It's by the same maker and they can be dosed together. These are natural and will not hurt the bio-filter. It can at least keep things from getting worse while you wait to see how water quality improvements help.

Try hard to find that missing BN to make sure it's not continuing to contribute to an ammonia problem.

What is this chloromon? Does it claim to give false-positive readings on some testers? If you have an ammonia test kit, try this test. Fill someting with some tap or well water. Test it for ammonia. Add some of this chloromon and agitate the water somehow for a few hours. Then, test it for ammonia. If you see a mid-range reading, then it could be just the product doing it's stuff. If this is the case, I would find a new chlorine/chloramine remover that does not cause this to happen.

[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-07-15 09:27][/span]

Thanks for your continuing help Cory-Di.. i dont know where i would be without it!!

The latest update at the moment..
i went to the the LFS last nite and bought a nitrite kit as well as pimafix.. as ive heard about it on this website.. (i feel a bit like a chemist with all my test kits and chems!) as i was paying i told the guy there about my probs and he sold me Geo Liquid.. have you heard about this stuff before? it is supposed to clear the tank of chems and meds and also balances your ph, ammonia, nitrate and nitrite?
so i cautiously added the rec. dose last nite before heading off to bed and tested the water this morning and it has all come up perfect.. the ph was steady at 7 and there were no traces of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the tank. the fish also looked perkier however still had there wounds ( could ask for miracles now!).
its realy worrying me that my butterfly fish is still not eating.. how long can a fish live without eating?
do you know of any liqiud food you might be able to add to the tank to make them eat? i dont want him starving to death!


i do have an UGF running which has seemed to work ok in the tank as its around 20g. The thought has crossed my mind that maybe the bn has climbed down the filter and under the plates,,, and if this is the case how will i ever get down there? the only other explanation that i can come up with was that dad might have sucked her up in a tank clean as she was only little...?

i havent seen any sign of black fins as yet... they have more of a white cloud over them,, the feelers of the butterfly have just disintergrated and the feelers of the gouramis have split and have like a cotton ball look..
all of there eyes are still white.. the bn i have left seems fine...

chloromon is an ammonia neutraliser i think you can also use it as a type of water ager. it hasnt given a false reading as yet.. after adding it to the tank i tend to wait about half hour before i retest and so far it has seemed to work.. my ammonia wheel that i bought and added to the tank to warn me of rising levels has seemed to be a dud unfortunately!

after adding the Geo Liquid i dont know where to go from here? if i add pimafix and the melafix im not sure if it will neutralise it as well?
should i try a 25% water change then add the melafix and pimafix together?
should i still try out the salt solution as well or will i be adding to much to the tank again?

sorry for all the quessier but im still kinda new at this and this has been my first dilemma!

thanks again!

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

I never have heard of Geo-Liquid, but if it worked, I can't argue. Just keep an eye on your numbers daily for a while, in particular ammonia, nitrite and pH. Let's make sure there are no surprises.

It does sound like infection with the more detailed description. Let's see how the Pimafix and Melafix work together. Make sure you remove activated carbon.

As for apetite, take some fish flake and try to crush some garlic juice onto the flakes, then put a few in the tank. Garlic enhances fish apetite. You could put some of the garlic juice into the water and it may stimulate them to eat, as well. Here in the US, they sell products like Garlic Guard . Lord knows you don't need to buy a product to get the same result .

Here's one example used for fish food soak. http://www.kentmarine.com/gx.html

And another: http://www.trilbytropicals.com/GARLIC_GUARD.htm

If you don't see progress in a few days with PimaFix and Melafix, then you may need to move on to an antibiotic. I don't know if you have erythromycin available where you are, but that would be a choice. Sulfas are ok, but the E-Mycin is more effective, I believe. Tetracycline would be an alternative, but it needs to be done in dim - no lights or it will be ineffective. Tetracycline and sulfa are harder on the biofilter than erythromycin.

thanks again for all your help Cory_Di i think my fish would all be dead if it wasnt for your advice!

well an update.
i added the garlic on Friday nite when i got home .. and let me tell you i still havent worked out to juice a garlic! however i did manage a couple of small drops after i crushed it . mum wasnt too impressed with the smell of the kitchen and i was definately safe from any vampires that nite!
he still wasnt eating over the weekend.. i even put a couple of crickets to see if he would prefer them but he took one snap at them and left alone.. my bf feed them this morning and he said he saw him eat a couple of pellets so that made me feel a bit better!

ive been adding the melafix and pimafix for the past few days and that seems to be slightly helping... i do realise it might take a while.. but there is improvement so that counts as something! isnt erythromycin human medicine?

i also got a new canister filter for my bday from my bf .. he knew how much i wanted a new filter! so im running both me UGF and the cannister at the moment.. do you think it is too much? the cannister filter is actually too strong for my 20g but im hoping to upgrade in a few months...

when do you think i should consider adding more fish?

ive been testing ammonia, ph etc... but they are all still stable.. loving that Geo liquid!

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

- I'll bet you had garlic scent on your fingers for the next day or two

Yes, erythromycin is human medicine, and so is sulfa, tetracycline, penecillin and many others we put in fish tanks. . In the US, it is easy to get many different types of antibiotics packaged for fish. I believe they are often teh same strength as that used for humans (like 100mg or 250mg capsules). It's much cheaper than what we have to pay or what our insurance has to pay. I've read that in Asia, they even use Cipro for some bacterial infections.

Are his fins still clamped? Or, is he relaxing a bit? Clamped fins are a sign of stress or his way of saying, "Hey, I don't feel well at all!!!". If his fins are more normal, then he is feeling better.

How are the eyes looking? If it was ammonia that caused the clouding, then it could take a few weeks for things to improve. However, if it is a bacterial infection, it may take actually antibiotic to help it along. While melafix and pimafix are good, don't hesitate to dose the tank with antibiotic that is available in Aus. If you continue to see improvement, give it a full 10 days or 14 days, whatever the bottle says. But if he starts to get worse you can try sulfa or other. Talk to your fish store about what they have available. I'm not too keen on sulfa as I think much as becoming resistant to it. If erythromycin or e-mycin is a choice, get that. I think it will be less hard on the bio-filter. If you do dose with antibiotic, you'll need to check ammonia and nitrite daily and be prepared for partial water changes. Usually, these would come towards the end of antibiotic treatment. Another good choice would be something in what we call a furanoid class, that is it would contain nitrofurazone, furazolidone, nifurpurinol, (note the "fur". We have meds like Jungle Fungus Eliminator and Fungus Clear (aimed at bacteria that often looks like fungus).

Make sure you aren't stressing the fish with the cannister. Consider making a post in the technical tinkering forum about the gph and tank size to see what the techies think

He is still not taking food which is worrying me... i think the filter might be a bit much at the moment and its stressing him a bit.. he hasnt come out the vale for a while... ill have to find out if there is a way to turn it down or something.. not good with the techncal stuff!

His fins are still slightly clamped but id rather avoid adding too many chems to the tank again..im kinda scared after my last problem... the film over his eyes is gone so that is a positive sign i have stopped adding the melafix and pimafix for the moment and will do a 25% water change this weekend... i think he just needs a bit of a rest from it all...
ill keep you posted on the results!

thanks for everything!!!

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

If the cloudiness is gone, it could be the melafix or pimafix, in addition to the improved water quality. If it was an infection and you stop too prematurely, it could come back with a vengance. Those two products will not harm your biological filter. Run it at least 7 days or whatever the minimimum time is on the bottle.

Hope things look up. You definitely don't want to stress him as it can make him sick again.