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SubscribeSick Gideon (betta) and treatment, long
stampingchick
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Fingerling
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Registered: 24-Dec-2005
female usa
Instead of retyping this, I am copying/pasting. Sorry if it is confusing.

Okay this is going to seem kinda rambly, and stuff overlaps, but I'll keep it as simple as I can.
About 2 weeks ago: Noticed he was just acting really lethargic. We had the gas logs on, so I checked his water temp. It was about 82-85, I can't really remember but it was high. I turned off the logs and checked again in a few hours. Temp seemed a little high but not nearly as bad. Checked it in the morning, temp was fine. Started being really careful with his temp and whenever I noticed it getting high, would turn off the logs. Seemed okay for a bit. Then didn't seem to matter whether the logs were on or not. It was always around 80 which is higher than his normal 74 or so. Took out the heater for a few days, then decided to check again (yes, I should have done it without him in there, but no other option.) before I bought a new one. Still high. Took it out and haven't put it back in.
About a week ago, I noticed he wasn't eating his food and it was accumulating on top. (It had only been there 1 day, not long). So I scooped it out and let him fast a few days thinking he was stressed from the temp thing. Reintroduced the food, and he still ignored it.
Around this time, I noticed he started scratching against things. Added Melafix, thinking it helped with external parasites. Treated him for a week, did a WC, things seemed better. Still no heater in the tank, so I was leaving the light on as much as I could for warmth.
Tonight I noticed he was still looking really bad. Laying on the bottom, or at the top, but not his normal active little self. Watched him for a bit, and saw he was still scratching. So here's what I did: put him in his critter carrier that he goes into when I do a WC. Added a few pellets, thinking he would ignore them. He usually gets flakes due to SBD, but I figured if I could just get him eating again, I could fix that. Proceeded with the WC, with my mom fish-sitting. I am rinsing out his gravel and she calls, "He's eating!" Yay! I do his water change, trying to get the temp warm but not drastically different than it was before the WC. Crushed up 1/4 of a tablet of clout (he's in a 2.5) and added 2 small pinches of aquarium salt. Changed the bulb from a 7.5 watt, which with the heater got way too hot, to a 15 watt. and decided to leave the light on until the heater gets here. He has a cave he can go in if he gets tired of the light. When I first put him in, he seemed kind of shocked, just laying on the bottom. Then he went into his cave and now he is hanging out beside his cave. Did I do the right thing? Anything else I should have done? Anything I shouldn't have done (besides the obvious heater issues)?
Gideon is a betta. He is in a 2.5 gallon. The clout was for the external parasites I assumed he had due to the scratching. Salt was to help ease stress. i know this is a controversial issue on here, but I thought it may help and probably wouldn't hurt. SBD= swim bladder disorder. I know the 15 W bulb produces more heat, and that he should have a heater. From the OP:"and decided to leave the light on until the heater gets here." Implying one is on the way. Since it's such a small tank, I can't use a 25 and that's the smallest I have seen around here except for the jr heaters at walmart which is what he had.
The water params:ammonia, 0; nitrAte 10; nitrIte 0.

Today he seems about the same. Staying around the top, seems to be breathing a little hard, but may just be paranoia. He has blown a few bubbles.

He is also at least 2 years old. I have had him a little over a year, and he was full grown when I got him.
Just noticed he's still scratching. Will do another dose of clout I guess.
He is on the bottom of the tank, almost buried himself in the gravel. Is visibly gasping for air. Please help!!!
Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 20:48Profile PM Edit Report 
Lindy
 
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Can you add some surface agitation to his tank? Maybe he is lacking in oxygen. Use an air pump with an airstone if you dont have a small filter that you could use.
He could also be suffering from the constant changes in temp. Is there somewhere in the house where it is cooler that you could keep him so that it is only the heater that is warming the tank? (keeping it constant)


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Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 22:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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female canada
Fish will flash when they have parasites, or when the pH isn't right, or when the water quality is not good. How often do you water change, gravel clean and how do you go about it? Do you do 100% changes and clean everything in sight, or do you do smaller changes and not clean everything in sight? What kind if filter is on the tank if any, and if there is one, how often do you clean it and how. This will give some idea about the water conditions, if you could test the water and post results this would also help.

The temp going up and down could have caused stress which in turn could bring on all kinds of things. It's better not to adjust the water temp too quickly or do too much in the tank all at once. Light also can be a source of stress, having the light on all the time is not good for him either, I'd do lights out and keep the room warmer until the heater is settled in.

Salt vey rarely hurts, the only time I'd be wary is with sensitive plants and fish, I use salt in my planted tanks when I think it may be beneficial, it can be good for so many reasons to use salt. Stress coat or similar would also be beneficial to him.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus
Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 22:54Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
stampingchick
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Fingerling
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female usa
Lindy, even though he is a betta, it could be lack of oxygen? He doesn't have a heater at the moment, I was leaving the light on for heat.
luv:I do a WC once a week, 100% since he's only in a 2.5. I added some stresscoat to his water.
Had thought about putting him in a breeder net in my 46 until his heater gets here and gets settled in. But didn't want to risk infecting that tank with parasites, if he has them. I haven't seen him scratching lately. Do you think it would be okay to put him in there?
Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 23:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
luvmykrib
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I wouldn't move him right now, he has been stressed enough lately. When you change the water do you add 'Cycle' or similar? The downside to 100% water changes is they re-cycle every time and that can cause problems. Though bettas usually seem to be able to handle it.

Warmer temps tend to help keep fish disease free, I keep my betta at just about 80F, so far he's been fine except for his tail rotting, which could have been due to a drop in temp overnight. From 80F to 76F, which means his tank is getting a new heater as well. Bettas aren't cold water fish, they like it warm, and steady, no ups and downs if possible. Probably the best thing to do now is try to keep everything stable and support him as best you can, feed lightly and try not to stress him anymore. An airstone would keep the water moving, they do take surface air, but O2 in the water never hurts either. Although a filter would also keep the water moving. Do you have a filter of any type on the tank?

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus
Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 23:13Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
stampingchick
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Fingerling
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female usa
luv, sorry forgot that question.
no filter on this tank. couldn't find one small enough. i will try an air stone, but am afraid it may be too much for him. it is an 8 inch stick. I also have a 4 inch. the only way i could reduce the flow of air is a clothespin, and i've heard that's not a good idea. when i do WC, i always add stress coat. right now his temp is around 75. thanks for your help.
Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 23:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
stampingchick
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Fingerling
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female usa
just noticed his color seems to be a little better. Should I turn out his light? If i do his water temp will drop...he has a cave he can go into for darkness.
Post InfoPosted 09-Mar-2006 23:25Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
longhairedgit
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Hate to say the obvous, but I tend to think a 2.5 gallon is simply too small to maintain most fish without encountering frequent problems. Even labyrinth fish arent supposed to have to depend on air gulping for survival for extended periods. Go to at least a ten gallon, and the water quality and oxygenation will be much better, and youll be able to get a proper internal filter. The heating will be more controllable too and much less likely to fluctuate. In a 2.5 without filtration using meds can be problematic too.
Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 02:46Profile MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
stampingchick
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Fingerling
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female usa
"Even labyrinth fish arent supposed to have to depend on air gulping for survival for extended periods. "

long, can you tell me where you found that? I haven't ever seen that and I have had bettas for years, and didn't find anything when I googled after reading your post. Thanks for your input.
Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 03:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
longhairedgit
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EditedEdited by longhairedgit
Meaning no disrespect ,I think youll find its both common sense and common knowledge.I could cite passages from any one of a dozen books that I personally own,including any number of anatomical studies and studies done on the labyrinth organ in bettas, but ill give you a brief long and short of it. Its an organ intended for periods of seasonal drought and in cases of flooding where the bacteria and detritus deplete the water, theyre supposed to use it, but not depend on it incessantly. Anyone who forces their betta to live in oxygen depleted water with little surface area or without an airstone or similar cannot expect it to live a long time. Its there for extreme situations, not to be be relied upon constantly, or there would be no point in gills - its a survival tool, but its not a true lungfish! Even a large mucky puddle can have more oxygen saturation than a 2.5 gallon, and a much greater surface area.More water will certainly solve a lot of the thermic issues that can lead to shock as the larger volume takes longer to heat up and cool down.

Then you have to think of the psychological health of the fish, and to put it in a 2.5 gallon isnt to my mind especially humane, and thats quite besides the water chemistry and gaseous issues that are almost bound to happen from time to time. If its causing you filtration issues, and possible oxygenation issues , the answer is obvious- go bigger! Even doubling up to a 5 gallon, a tiny tank by most peoples standards could improve the situation. The smallest tank I have in the house is 20 gallon, and thats for fish much smaller than your betta!

The whole thing about bettas is that they can top up with air when they need to,and this gives the average beginner some elbow room when it comes to making water quality and keeping mistakes, they are a tough fish, but unfortunately a lot of people take their abilities a little too literally and skimp on size and tank equipment and that just increases the risks of something going wrong.In every respect ,they should be treated as an average fish and provided with good oxygenation , proper diet and reasonable sized accomodation, especially if you have more than one, because most of them are territorial.

Another thing to bear in mind is also the issues to do with gas fires and possible carbon monoxide poisoning. Some fish are more susceptible than humans , not saying that is the problem, but its worth checking your gas fire, particularly if it produces loose flames and might be a little choked with carbon from use . Fish can be like the proverbial miners canary , often starting to look ill when certain heating appliances are used.

Melafix doesnt really kill many parasites its kind of more for bacterial and fungal issues. Does the fish have any white dots or signs of infection anywhere on the fins, eyes or gills, or gone off colour recently?

Filtration under low oxygen situations can also be hampered, the bacteria that process ammonia require a good supply of oxygen for the efficiency of the process, so again that could lead to ammonia spikes etc. In such a small tank with so little dissolved oxygen its also worth remembering that meds like melafix, although gentle by most standards will cause some bacterial die off, not filter bacteria, but omnipresent bacteria in the tank, and in the gravel etc, and that too will cause a decrease in oxygen as it begins to decompose, and other gases like methane are released. Low oxygen, use of meds, thermic distress, bacterial death, and possibly even carbon monoxide,periodic ammonia spikes, all possible causes of a fish struggling to breathe. Add to that the possible parasite issue which could have been anything from gill flukes, to bacterial or fungal gill rot, and your fish has got problems. All compounded and made harder to rectify because the water volume is so small.

ps, increasing temperature can cause the air in a swim bladder to expand even further,possibly even rupturing it, or forcing it to become stuck and ahered to the surround tissues making it harder to deflate again. Generally its not advised to raise or lower temperatures with swim bladder issues ,keep to the the midpoint of the fishes temperature tolerance range with as few variancies as possible. A lot of ailments, are helped by higher temperatures , but some people get excessive, upping temps during swim bladder issues or for the treatment of parasites in cases when the treatment isnt already administered. Doing this can actually increase the speed of the fish's demise.

Hope this gives you a few options to consider .
Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 04:45Profile MSN PM Edit Delete Report 
stampingchick
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Fingerling
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female usa
For it to be such common knowledge, i can't find it anywhere. Also no one else I ask has ever heard it. Not saying you're wrong, just saying it's not as common knowledge as you seem to believe. Thanks again for your response.
Post InfoPosted 10-Mar-2006 07:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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