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They do come out for food now. But if they are freightened they'll go back to their hiding spot. They are breathing heavily but their fins aren't clamped.

these are the symptoms of velvet

Symptoms: Scratchs against hard objects
Fish is lethargic
Loss of appetite and weight loss
Rapid, labored breathing
Fins clamped against body
Fine yellow or rusty colored film on skin
In advanced stages skin peeks off

After lifting the driftwood up it appears that a few of the fish are pretty bad. Theyu have films on their skin that kinda is a white colour but more on the gray/ yellow side. One cory is completely pale and has lost its colour. They are breathing heavily. I just did a 25% water change and cleaned the tank really good. Will they make it on their own or will they need medication? I just started this hobby not too long ago and don't know what to do.

Edit: If they do need medication, which they probably will, I won't be able to go to the lfs until Friday. Will they make it till then?

Last edited by ericm at 13-Oct-2004 20:00

Last edited by ericm at 13-Oct-2004 20:30

They do sell medications at lfs, but get there asap they might be able to make it to friday - NOt sure though

I am going to pick up the anti-parasite food you recommended later today. I would like to know if it is in a pellet form or flake type form?

It is a pellet that will likely need to be crushed. For cories, take some of the crushed form between your fingers, submerge them down low into a corner and let it go - it will sink. If you do this when it is dim or darker, the cories will get it. They like to feed when it is dark/dim.

However, if any fish in the tank potentially has gill flukes or parasites, I would also sprinkle some of the crushed form for the others to have. Follow directions for feeding 3 days, then normally for a week, and a followup of another three days, etc. This helps break the cycle.

I just fed them and they went for it. All my other fish eat any food that is inside the tank so that's no problem.

Keep us updated on how they do.

First of all, your fish need a break from you. Cories can be frightened easily and they hide when they do. It is possible that not all are frightened, but due to their schooling nature, if one or more are hiding, the rest are likely to hide along with them. This is why the go out at night and go crazy when you're around. I don't think you've done anything too extreme, but if they're already weak, they become even more easily stressed. With time they will regain their confidence and will come out.

As for treating the velvet/flukes, when a cory of mine had slime disease I treated him with a salt dip. I know that most people believe that cories should never be treated with salt, but mine did not respond to medications and my last resort was to treat him with salt. His condition improved instantly.

So, my advice, if you decide to take it, is to put 1 gallon of tank water in a bucket with 4 tea spoons of salt. Place the infected cories only for up to 30 minutes, but monitor them closely and take them out earlier if you feel it's necessary.

Unfortunately, this will only stress them more. To eliminate the stress, do it last thing before you turn the lights off. Then, once you've put them back, leave the room. During the next few days, give them some more space than usual. Also, be a little bit gentle with your next cleaning routine. It would be better to feed less and skip cleaing the filter and gravel for a week and only change some of the water.

Monitor their condition for a week, it should greatly improve. If after a week you feel that the improvement is coming to a halt, give a second treatment. If it is steady, let nature take its course.

Again, I know this might seem radical to most people, but it comes from my experience. Medications don't only affect the cause of the disease but they affect the fish too, in the same way that they affect us when we take them, and in the same way we wouldn't treat ourselves with a different medication every few days, we shouldn't do it to our fish, as this greatly weakens them. Improving their general well being can help them far more than medications.

This is basically what I believe in. If you decide to take my advice or not is up to you. In any case, keep us posted and good luck.

Last edited by untitled at 07-Nov-2004 18:20

Well after 2 weeks since i began feeding the anti parasite food, they seem to be doing a lot better. They are coming out a bit more besides for food and they look healthier.

So you mean there is no more flicking since we started the medicated feed?

It's hard to imagine how an anti-parasite med food can work to eliminate external parasites or gill parasites. A beloved neighborhood squirrel that lived to a ripe old age of 9, had showed up on my doorstep one day when she was about 7 with all the hair gone on her back. I had a vet freind who was a rehab specialist for local squirrels (construction crews would bring in nests of babies for her to raise when they were taking down trees). She took one look at my pics and determined the squirrel was afflicted with mange - a type of parasite that had been making the rounds. Winter was setting in and I figured it would be a slow, horrible death. After confirming that I could hand feed this squirrel specifically, she gave me (free of charge), a bottle of Ivermectin with instructions to use 1-2 drops on a walnut halve, once weekly until baldness was gone. Sure enough, within a couple weeks she stopped the scratching and the hair stubbles started to show. She got a good coat back before we got into sub-zero weather. What's more, is that ivermectin was not harmful to her future babies. As the parasites bit into her they died and were not capable of laying more eggs.

It's pretty much the same with the fish eating anti-parasitic food. Not only does it eliminate them from the digestive tract if they are there, they will die when biting the fish.

By instructions, you should have only fed three days, then resumed normal feeding for a week, then repeated if necessary for just 3 days. Is this how you did it?

If they stopped flicking finally, this is great.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 17-Nov-2004 18:26

I am following directions. I am feeding 3 consecutive days a week . It says to feed 3 consecutive days a week for 4 weeks so I picked 3 days in a week where I just feed the anti parasite food alone. The flicking has mostly stopped and I haven't seen them do it in a while unless something really freightened them. I just want to make sure I am feeding correctly. I am feeding Sat, Sun, Mon then I resume normal feeding and then the next week I will feed on the Sat, Sun, Mon again. So to make that a bit more easier to understand. I picked 3 days a week which I feed the food on.

I wasn't sure if it should be like you described, or if it meant to go 7 days of normal feeding in between. I think you may be right.

I highly recommend contacting jungle directly using their "contact the lab" at http://www.junglelabs.com. They are very good to respond to questions within 24-48 hours (business days). You an always ask them for advice too. But get clarification from them. This not only helps you, but may drive them to clarify their wording on the next iteration of their packaging.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 17-Nov-2004 21:32

Well things have seemed to take a turn for the worst. 2 of the cories died today and some of them wont come out from their hiding places. I also noticed one of the cories has really intense colour.

Last edited by ericm at 21-Nov-2004 12:03

If they did have parasites, infection can go hand in hand. It's possible they have bacterial infections. It's up to you, but I would switch to the anti-bacterial food (Jungle), if they are eating.

Once again, you can always contact Jungle Labs with the recent history and see what they advise. If you email them today via their website, you'll probably get a response tomorrow or Tuesday.

What did the cories look like that were dead? Did they look like their eyes were sunken in or that their heads were swollen (dropsy)? If they weren't dead too long, it is important to look at the body for any clues and compare that to how they looked when you last saw them. Some things can come post-mortem, but if they've only been dead a few hours and the other fish have not fed on them, you can often see alot (color, shape, eyes). When a death is unexpected, I ask people to look at the base of the fins for red pinpoints or red blotches anyplace on the body - a sure sign of bacterial septicemia.

I had purchased new cories from a fish store that did not have good lighting. When I got them home, something seemed "off". After letting them rest in my dim tank, I finally turned the light on and almost gasped at how awful they truly looked. It was a classic case of bacterial septicemia and was too far along. I lost them both 36-48 hours later and actually euthanized them as they were suffering terribly.

What I had noticed when I turned the lights on were the classic red, blotches/streaks around the belly, behind the gills, and the red pin points at the base of the pectoral fins. The next day the red streaking was into the fins. In addition, one was quite pale, the other was unusually dark. I later learned this too can be symptomatic of septicemia.

A few weeks after I lost them, the manager of the freshwater section at a different fish store said he lost an entire stock of the same cories. He said something terrible happened with that entire group of cories and that he had heard other stores had massive die-off as well.

There are many bacteria that can lead to septicemia. Septicemia is more of a condition and it involves massive internal bleeding. It really takes oral antibiotic to even have a chance of curing it. In some cases, the infection can be cured, but the damage to to the internal organs is too great and they die anyway.

I don't like overmedicating, but I've seen how quickly it can go down. If there were signs of septicemia like blood pin-points at the base of the fins, don't wait to put the tank on anti-bacterial food. If any fish are harboring some type of internal, systemic infection, all fish in your aquarium are at risk, especially if they feed on the dead and dying. Some internal infections can be rapid and swift, killing the population fast, or they can be more chronic, picking them off one and two at a time over weeks or months.

What are your latest parameters? In particular, are you keeping your nitrates low (below 20), if your ammonia and nitrites are stable at 0? Exceptional water quality is a must. There will always be bacteria in the water column. However, when one is sick, there can be an abundance of it available. More frequent, same temp water changes, can minimize the bad bacterial count, especially if you continue to gravel vac sections of the tank (including moving items to get yuks out from the nooks and crannies).

Last edited by Cory_Di at 21-Nov-2004 13:28

Last edited by Cory_Di at 21-Nov-2004 13:31

Well the cories had appeared to be mostly pale when i found them but they were really red around the gills. The other cories now don't seem to be moving a lot and they just hide. The water parameters are fine:

Ammonia - O
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 5-15
pH: 7.6

Keep in mind, cories can hide all day long. Mine do.

Is it also normal behavior for them to stay still for a long period of time? I also think that the gill flukes have spread to some of the danios.

It is quite normal for cories to hide all day long, if that's what you mean by staying still. They will, however, still come out for food when it's given if they're fine.

I still think you should have a go at the salt dip treatment which I advised before. Salt dip, as opposed to salt bath, means that you dip them for a short while in salt water, and then put them back, rather than putting the salt in the main tank. Although they are known to be intolerable of salt, they will survive the salt dip, if it's done wisely, and will only get better.

I was concerned before I've treated my sick cory with a salt dip as almost everyone says you shouldn't treat them with salt. It was my last resort as it was hard to identify the exact cause of its illness. I tried a couple of medications before, and they didn't work. If anything, they made things worse. When I figured out that I have nothing to lose, I treated it with a salt dip and have noticed a great improvement instantly. I would advise you to give it a shot -- the fish wasn't anywhere near dying because of the salt dip, and I have given him a second salt dip two weeks later to keep up his good recovery. So I would advise you to try that.

I am also against using too many medications one after another. These are unnatural after all and I believe that an overdose lead to weakening of the fish.

If you would like to try the salt dip and want me to repeat the method I've used, let me know and I'll post it again.

Well they seem to be getting better, the ones that are still left, but maybe I'll give it a try because I'm not sure if they will make it. I have only been using anti parasite food right now. Could you please repost the procedure. Thanks.

What I did was to put 1 gallon of aquarium water in a bucket, add 4 teaspoons of salt (I used rock salt, because that's what I had, make sure it's an appropriate salt for use with fish -- i.e. no anti caking additives), and once it dissolved in the water, I placed the fish in the bucket and monitored it closely for signs of stress (other than the stress of being netted and put in a bucket that is). As long as they swim properly, they're fine. If you see something that worries you, take them out and put them back in the tank. As mine showed no such signs, I left it there for 30 minutes.

This is already a reduced strength solution, I didn't want to use full strength because I was worried about salt and cories.

As cories are pretty shy and pretty fast, you and them are going to be very stressed from just trying to net them, so my other tip is to do it before you turn their lights out, so they can recover from the shock over-night in the dark.

I hope this will work for you as good as it did for me. I thought I was going to lose that fish, but that single salt dip made such an immense improvement to his health that I kicked myself for not doing it earlier.

Last edited by untitled at 25-Nov-2004 03:53

Last edited by untitled at 25-Nov-2004 03:55

Well another is dead. The anti parasite food didn't work. I haven't had time to try the salt dip. I will try that tomorrow, but I hope it isn't too late. What can I do to ensure that any new fish added to the tank will not catch this? A big water change? I hope the others don't die.

Ok, a word of advice, first, do a big water change on your tank. Match the PH and Temperature exactly, and make sure you add Prime, or Aquasafe, or some other water conditioner. in my opinion, Prime is the best, it lasts 10 times longer than any other bottle of water conditioner.
Now, go to your LFS, and get two medications. Get MELAFIX, and get Kent Marine RX-P. The melafix will help heal the fishes wounds (could be super tiny), and if there are any parasites (ich, velvet, flukes, etc), the RX-P will clear it up. Its harmless to all fish and most invertebrates. Add 1 capful per 10 Gallons every 2nd day, and do a water change on day 6, then continue for the remainder. Treat for 14 full days (7 doses of RX-P).
This should clear it up. You might also consider a bottle of PIMAFIX, and dose every 2nd day along with the Melafix.
Harsh medications, like Malachite green and copper salts, can have seriously detrimental effects on fish. You should always consider going with the most natural, least harmful medication possible. Melafix, Pimafix, and Rx-P, are all natural ingredients, guaranteed not to harm or stress your fish. Dont overdose any of them though! Melafix and Pimafix should never ever be dosed daily. Always skip a dose, and do a 30% water change before a 4th dose is added. Melafix and Pimafix can both be lethal if overdosed. Carbon does not remove these medications very quickly.
Personally, I would avoid using any medications that contain dyes (malachite green, methylene blue, gentian violet, etc) or preservatives (formalin, copper salts, etc). All of these meds are outdated and harmful to different types of fish. Avoid them if possible.
Good luck! Keep us posted, and try my advice, It may just help you out.
Also, can you tell me what type of filtration system is on your tank, just for the heck of it?



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I did the salt dip tonight, and I hope that works out. If it doesn't then I'll try your suggestion. I have an Aqua Clear 200 on my 32 gallon.

Let us know how things are going. I hope the remaining fish will get better quickly.

They were never shy until now. They are still scraping, but their colour is starting to come back and they still have a few spots. I have a cave in the aquairum but they seem to like hiding under the driftwood. I still have the med in there because they seem to be slowly getting better. Their eating habbits are normal.

Is that some type of copper solution? (copper salts, copper sulfate, etc.)

I was editing to add this link and saw you replied already. Here is that link again. It's on fish stress from the Univeristy of Florida Extension Service.

[link=http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA005]http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA005" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

Well the link didn't work and the med contains sodium chloride and malachite green. I think I am going to do a repeat dose. I just did a water change so some of the med is out. No improvement in the cories yet, they've had this for 2 weeks now . One of them has a white spot underneath his dorsal fin. Another one seems to be pale. They are eating and come out for food but spend most of the day hiding.

I'm not even sure anymore if they have velvet. After reading about other diseases I think it could be Skin & Gill Flukes. My water parameteres are fine and I did a 20% water change. They flash themselves against aquarium gravel, they breathe heavily, the fish isolate themselves and lie at the bottom with fins clamped. Also they have cloudy skin and one has a white spot underneath its dorsal fin. Any ideas?

"Oodinium pillularis is the cause of velvet, is a dinoflagellate that in it's parasitic phase on the fish can attain a size of more than 100 microns, making it just visible as a light spot with the naked eye. The Skin, gills and often intestines are affected. In severe infections the fish takes a velvet texture (as you mention de cloudy skin), the coating looking yellow to yellowish brown." Taked from "handbook of fish diseases" Dieter Untergasser.

Possible Treatments:
1.- Heat treatment.- The temp should be raised slowly and not more than 1 Celcius hourly. The rational of this therapy is to create an environment in wich the pathogen is no longer viable to reproduce. NOT ALL SPECIES OF FISH CAN TOLERATE HIGHER TEMPERATURES. Oodinium 33-34 Celcius for 24 to 36 Hours. Absolutely clean water and good aeration is essential

2.- Quinine Sulfate, quinine HCl.- Dosage: 1g quinine to 100 liters water as a continuous bath for 3 days.
Quinine poisons fish that are sensitive to it and lower animals do not tolerate very well. Quinine HCl is preferred over quinine sulfate. Altough quinine decomposes after some time in water, it is better to filter out over activated charcoal after the treatment. It's safer to treat the fish in a separate small tank and then treat the aquarium by itself. That way no fish will die when thw water is poured into the aquarium. Afterward change all the water. Transfer the fish to separate treatment tanks containing freshly prepared medication if the aquarium water becomes turbid.

3.- Copper sulfate.-
Stock Solution: 1g copper sulfate and 0.25g citric acid to 1 liter of destillated water.
Dosage: 12.5ml to 10 liters of aquarium water for 10 days. Administer half of this on days three, five and seven.

Test reagents for copper have been available for some time now among the diagnostic sets for water chemistry. During the treatment the copper content should be between 0.12mg/L and 0.18mg/L. Test every other day and add any missing copper.

Ok those are the methods this book recommends, what I would do is to buy some copper based medication, raise the temp to 30 Celcius (32-34 is way too much for me)and follow the instructions of the med you get. Method 2 is too risky for me

Hope this could help
Regards
Hectornull

The person at the lfs told me it was copper based and i have my temp at 28 celcius and i follwed the instructions on the bottle. I have 2 questions. Is it velvet or a different disease? And, if it is velvet how long should I leave the med in for? It said to put it in for 3 consecutive days which I did, but still no improvement.

Try to make a water change and in the new water add the missing medication, if you have MSN maybe We could check online in the books I have to verify the diagnostic, my msn is shown below. Good look

Hector

I don't think it is velvet. I think it is Skin & Gill Flukes. The cories have very simlar symptoms to flukes also.

Last edited by ericm at 22-Oct-2004 18:51

A word of very serious caution....

If you have any malachite green left in the tank, you do not want to add anything with copper. The combo can be deadly.

Copper cannot be filtered out with carbon. However, follow instructions from the manufacturer for filtering out any of the med you used, should you switch to copper.

If you filter out what you have, and let the tank rest a few days, you can try Parasite Clear Tank Buddies fizz tabs. This has an ingredient called praziquantel, which is effective against flukes. It will not work on ich or velvet, but does work for internal parasites and flukes. If the active ingredient is praziquantel (Jungle reformulated and the old version without the prazi may still be on shelves), it can safely be dosed at full strength, even for cories. However, these fish are already sickly and could expire regardless. Don't mistake it for a reaction to the medicine at this point.

Monitor ammonia and nitrite levels while medicating. You could end up with a sudden spike with some meds.

Itching can also be caused by other factors. Is it happening daily regardless of time? Or, is it happening soon after water changes?

What is the pH? Are you using pH adjusters?

My pH is stable at 7.6. Hasn't dropped or raised at all since I started the aquarium. I don't use any pH adjusters. It has been a few weeks and they are still sick! What is wrong with them? The med has been in there for almost 2 weeks now. They look a bit better but they will only come out for food.

Is it strictly their behavior now - like in, shy? Or, are they scratching and scraping yet? Have you filtered out all other meds?

If it is strictly a shyness issue, then I would ask if you have alot of hiding places for them. I jammed my tank initially with several caves and dense thickets of fake plants. What happened is that they became reclusive over time. Initially they were outgoing and I believe that by giving them so much cover, they don't like being out unless they have to. I started to stand back away from the tank and noticed they were active when I wasn't around.

Also, I've found my cories are more active at certain times during the day for only short spurts.

If they are of good weight, good color, are feeding and have no scraping or other symptoms of parasites, I'd say they are fine.

Make sure that "dusting" or coating isn't their regular appearance. My cories have a subtle irridescence that, in the early days, I panicked and thought was velvet. I did not treat because they weren't flicking, then I realized it was just how they looked. They have a "twinkle"

I used a half dose of the medication, since it said to use half the dose for cories, tetras, and scaleless fish. Should I try adding in a full dose? If yes, could i just add in another half dose since I have half in there now?

...?

How are you doing?, are there any progress??