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He has done 20% water change by the time he tested, Cory, which could account for the 'low' appearance of the ammonia relative to what you'd expect from an uncycled tank. It's possible the ammonia was above 1ppm before the change, and nitrites around 4-5ppm. Will never know now!

I doubt you could have killed all of the bacteria in a filter clean, as a lot of it resides under the gravel. You might find using both of your canisters on the tank helps the clarity and quality of your water, and if you change media in the alternately (i.e. do one this month, the other next), then you will maintain a very healthy level of good bacteria.

I use JBL test kits for Nitrate and Nitrite, as well as kH and gH. My Ammonia kit is the same as your others. It takes 30 minutes to run a nitrate test using the JBL kits... you have to mix a powder and a liquid, then aggitate for 2 minutes, then let react for 25 minutes. Absolute time consumer... but the tests always seem consistent, and it's also good for salt water... so i doubt you have a dud brand. Maybe they have just 'expired'??

Good to hear he's looking better!

It's still a little bit of a worry that your Nitrates are above 40ppm. Where you doing the 10% daily water changes since the 7th April? If so, that should have been enough to drop them well below 40ppm by now in your tank. Maybe increase to two daily 10% water changes until you get the nitrates below 30ppm, then do daily testing on the tank and watch to see when they increase to around 40ppm. Then do another water change, and retest, and repeat until you can establish when the nitrates are building up and how regularly you need to change water. Might also be an idea to put your buddy on a diet, and reduce the amount of food you're providing at each feeding.

As has already bee said, you have rather a large load on your tank, so it's time to think long term about getting a bigger tank or seperating some of the fish. If you don't, youre going to continue having Nitrate problems that can only be solved by large numbers of water changes.

Last edited by jester_fu at 17-Apr-2005 20:36

Last edited by jester_fu at 17-Apr-2005 23:07

An update so far:

KH is 1 (it turned yellow on the first drop)
Nitrates are slowly decreasing, but still pretty high (60ish) but Oscars eyes are starting to look a little better and not as 'crusty' looking.

I post some more numbers later on tonight
Regards

Ahh - so you are in that percentage of people who's pH drops after it is exposed to air.

It takes time for the pH to drop so when you do your water changes you've got 8.0 water going into 6.2 tank. Lots of small changes are best and keep watching your nitrates. It will just take longer.

You should see your pH climbing after you've done several successive changes. If you can do two 10% changes per day when feasible, it will take longer than doing one 30% change daily, but that would just be too shocky on the fish, imho.

You are lucky to have caught it when you did. The pH would have continued to drop and the problems would have compounded.

Oh yeah, and canberra water does smell funny and taste bad... now i drink filtered water and bottled water.

Ah you are all getting confused, when i first tested the tap water it was with a standard ph tester and it read 7.4 because i guess it couldn't read any higher. When i bought the other testkit it had a high range ph tester so i tested it with that to get a more accurate reading.

So, PH of canberra water is 8.0 from the tap, and 7.4 24hrs later using a high range ph tester.

I'll do a full test of the canberra water and post results.

Very interesting, thank you. I don't have that problem myself, with the water pH staying pretty much constant(maybe 0.1 uppermost variation) from the time it leaves the tap. It certainly gets more acidic with my big messy Oscars... but never have i seen it go more alkaline. Thanks.

- There are gases in tap water, and even in well water. The gases stay compressed as they go through the pipes. When the water hits the air, it begins to equalize with the atmospheric gases. Co2 will make the water acidic. So, my 7.0 initial pH is like a can of newly opened Coca-Cola. Leave the can sitting out overnight without a cap and what happens? The co2 escapes as the gases in the can equalize with those in the atmosphere. Check the pH on clear soda, then check from the same bottle 24 hours after leaving it sit on the counter.

How did it drop from 8.0 to 7.7 - you already guessed it: Wastes. If I were to do water changes daily, I'd be closer to 8. In fact, for the first few months when I was lightly stocked, it was 7.9-8.0.

With well water, it is my understanding you not only have co2 as you would have in tap water, but you also have nitrogenous gas.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Apr-2005 23:20

The water in Canberra is reasonably good, Cory. The bigest problem with it is relatively high mineral concentration (hardness) and the fact right now it is being dosed heavily with chemicals as dam levels are low due to drought. I stayed down there with a relative no long ago, and the water has a noticable smell about it compared to my tap water.

How does your tap water come out at 7.0, rise to 8.0 and then drop? I can understand the drop as the fish waste forces the water to be more acidic, but without CO2 injection, how does the water become more alkaline? Sorry... just curious... no need to answer if you're not in the mood

Did you use the high range on both? I couldn't be sure reading over your previous post.

All the more reason to keep your water changes small and frequent until things are under control. If water is going in from the tap at 8.0 into a tank that is at 6.2, the last thing you want to do is a 30, 40, 50% water change. By doing two 10% changes daily, when feasible, you will find the tank's pH getting closer to that 7.4. As it does, you can increase the amount of that water change up to 15%, then 20%, 25% gradually.

My water comes out of the tap at 7.0, then rises to 8.0. My tanks, without co2, rest at 7.7 with weekly water changes of 15%.

I don't know if I thought to mention it before, but you may want to test your tap water for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate just as a sense check. Depending on water source, some of our members battle nitrates right out of the tap.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 06-Apr-2005 21:06

If I understand you correctly, your water comes out of the tap at 7.4, then rises to 8.0?

No, other way round, its starts at 8.0 then drops to 7.4.

Thanks for the ideas, i'll keep with the water changes daily and hook up the other canister. later this weekend.

Don't feel bad about the nitrate tester, that one is definitely tricky the first time you do it. 80ppm after these water changes is more in line with what I would expect and with the test kit you have, which is what I have, it is really hard to distinguish between those reds, so it could be higher.

Ammonia could certainly be from cleaning or meds, but there would still be residual nitrates in the tank. Those aren't eliminated when good bacteria die off. They are eliminated either by a de-nitrification process or water changes.

If I understand you correctly, your water comes out of the tap at 7.4, then rises to 8.0?

Either way, your 6.2 tank pH, with that kind of water is telling me your tank is likely in the early stages of Old Tank Syndrome. Oscar's eyes could definitely be clouded due to ammonia if it has been there, even at low levels for a time. As long as he is not getting worse, lets not put meds in the tank other than Melafix or Pimafix, and focus strictly on water changes and some deep gravel vacs.

Here's what I would do...

Partition your tank mentally. Either remove fake plants and decco from 1/3 of the tank or move them to another area temporarily. In that 1/3, work slowly to gravel vac right to the glass. With the big difference in pH between your tap and tank, limit your water exchange to 15% or so until you see them getting closer together.

Hold the tube in place long enough to let the stuff travel up. Work methodically back and forth in that section. Hopefully your tube is clear so you can see if bubbles are coming up. If so, it is a sign of hydrogen sulfide - something that will often accompany anaerobic bacteria which is bad. Even if you don't find that, you will be removing some of the waste that is contributing to the problem. You've got some big fish in that tank and that means big volumes of poop. You can continue to do daily water changes to reduce the nitrates, but wait at least 5 days before doing a deep vac on the next section.

Keep in mind that you are reducing existing nitrates, but also battling those being produced daily. Once we get you down to 5ppm nitrates and zero ammonia, your next task will be to see how fast your nitrates get to 40ppm - a signal that you should do another water change. This could be 7 days, it could be 5 days or even 3. It is a sign that your load needs to be reduced or your tank needs to be bigger. You can certainly keep them in that tank, but you will be doing water changes several times weekly.

Now, since you have a symptomatic fish, I would recommend keeping nitrates below 20ppm for now, or even 30ppm. I believe you will see his eyes clearing within a few weeks. Once again, don't hesitate to use Melafix or Pimafix, or the two together for 7-10 days.

Please keep us updated and get us that latest kH reading and a comparison nitrate test from the lfs.

You're doing good so hang in there.

Ok me dumb i didn't do the nitrate one properly, i was supposed to shake the solution bottle for 30 seconds, not the test tube. then shake the test tube for 1 minute after solution 2. Duh! It has started going red now

In anycase the result looked very red, about 80 ppm

The ph of the tap water after 24hrs was just above 7.4 (using the high ph tester) and i redid the tap water with the high Ph and got 8.0

time for another water change....

BTW the medicine i have is called bactonex aquasonic
http://www.epetsuppliesdirect.com.au/shop/prod395.htm
http://www.petsplus.com.au/pet-shop.asp?id=296

Hey all,

My oscars eyes are getting worse and seem to have a crusty white covering.

http://users.on.net/~bluton/oscar.html

Is there any way to fix it? I've tried various anti-fungal solutions but to no avail. its got to the point where he can only see out of one eye.

The other fish in the tank seem fine so far and oscars appetite hasnt let up at all. He still eats a frozen cube of bloodworms or roaming tetra everyday

jbl test kit - gh (German brand)

Canadian brand - Aquarium Pharmacuticals - fresh water master test kit. Uses liquid and little test tubes. Each test took about 5-10 minutes

I followed the test kit instructions to the letter, but i'll give it another go tonight, and if the results are the same, i'll take a sample to the store to verify. I'll also get a kH tester as well.

Oscar is still the same, not lethargic at all. The other fish seem fine.

Filter is a cannister type (not sure of the brand/size, ill get that as well whe i get home). I have another cannister filter doing nothing from the old tank as well.

Maybe when i last cleaned out the filter i killed all the bacteria???

I think the nitrate test is faulty (old or procedural issue).

If the good bacteria were dead, there would be higher ammonia and nitrites.

We need a recheck on that nitrate with a different tester, or trying again, but carefully monitoring the methodology. If one thing isn't right, it will be a bad reading. Old kits are notorious for faulty readings on nitrates.

I'm still interested in the brand used, if it wasn't done at the store.

gH is not the same as kH. Have a look at this: http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html. Basically, kH represents the ability of water to buffer against pH changes, gH is the general hardness of the water. gH can include kH as a sum, but you would still be wise to get a kH test kit.

Your ammonia level is high. Levels above 0.2ppm are know to be fatal to some chiclids. Oscars are pretty hardy, but at 0.75ppm Ammonia, your on the boarderline of causing your fish serious health issues. As already said by Cory, the acidity of your water acts to buffer this, but addition of some airation/surface aggitation would be helpful as well. Ammonia levels make it difficult for fish to breath, so increasing disolved oxygen can help them cope with the situation.

Other than you have said your tank is established, i'd suspect you have no cycle given the low concentration of Nitrates and Nitrites. You should have some Nitrates show up with an Oscar in a 60G with 3 weekly water changes... It just sounds like all of the 'good' bacteria are dead.

I don't think i'd add anything chemical to treat the fish. Simply persist with 10% daily water changes until either the cycle re-starts, or someone diagnoses exactly what your problem is.

What is the large external filter you mention? Is it a canister or HOB? Thats size tank with that bio-load, i'd suggest you run a powerhead and a canister with 2*weekly water changes at 20%, in the long term...

HI Simon,

I think you are dealing with a condition called "Old Tank Syndrome", which is characterized by the presence of ammonia, high nitrates and lower pH than your tap. It can't be confirmed until you give us the pH reading from your 24 hour post tap reading and somehow reverify nitrates.

Something is wrong with that nitrate reading because there is no way with that kind of fish load, in that size tank, with the water change schedule you could possibly have zero nitrates.

Do you have the brand name for the kit? Is it a liquid with test tubes or a dip stick?

If it is a liquid test tube, make sure you follow the procedure carefully. Some nitrate tests can be time consumming and are a little more involved than ammonia or nitrite.

For example, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals nitrate test kit requires you to fill the 5ml bottle, then shake bottle one and add 10 drops. Then you cap the test tube and shake for 5 seconds. You then shake bottle 2 for 30 seconds before adding it to the test tube. Then you add 10 drops of bottle two, cap the test tube and then shake it for the one whole minute. Now, other manufacturer's kits may differ.

If you didn't do the testing, I would question either the procedure used by those testing, or the age of the test kit. If you could buy your own nitrate tester, if you don't have one, that would be best because with a heavy load like you've got, I'd suggest setting a nitrate target and basing your schedule on that. This could mean 2-3 times weekly once we get a true idea of the nitrate reading.

Knowing the brand of nitrate tester will help. It seems to me that some start out yellow, then when the numbers are highly elevated, the scale eventually returns to yellow when it is astronomical. Stupid, I know, but I've seen it somehwere.

The low level of ammonia will definitely cause the eyecloud on your oscar, if he has been exposed to it for days, weeks or months. We can try to work on this, but it will require much testing your part for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.

However, ammonia is less toxic to fish when in the kind of acidic water you currently have. That having been said, the ammonia may not be the kind that can kill the fish, but I believe it can create some problems, such as eye cloud.

Now, it is possible that this low level of ammonia has nothing to do with old tank syndrome and could be the result of recent medications. If that is the case, the ammonia should resolve itself, provided you don't clean the tank too aggressively all at once or replace filter media.

But, just based on the load, water change schedule I have a hard time believing this tank is not going through Old Tank Syndrome. Here is more on the subject.


http://www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html

gH is measure of total hardness. What we really need is the measure of carbonate hardness, which is kH.

If you have a test kit and can spot one online, link me to it so I can see their charts.

Get the kH when you can. We'll really know alot when we see your 24 hour test on the pH. In most cases, the pH will actually rise after this test. Make sure you keep agitating the water and try not to use metal if you haven't already. Stick with glass and wood for stirring, or plastic. In some rarer cases, people's pH will drop after 24 hours, but it is really less likely than a rise. This is because compressed gases tend to make the water acidic. Sitting in a bowl for 24 hours, being stirred periodically, releases the gases just like a can of soda will lose the bubbles if you leave it on a counter overnight. When they are gone, the pH tends to rise.

How is oscar doing? Any behavioral changes or is it looking worse? I'd stick only with small partial changes and Melafix or Pimafix for now, especially with ammonia.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 05-Apr-2005 13:01

Ok, did another 10% and tested about 30mins later and this are the numbers i got:


Ammonia: 0.75 (light green)
Nitrite: 0 (blue)
Nitrate: 0 (yellow)
pH: 6.2 (yellow)
GH: 11 0d (11 german degree)

no idea if these are good or bad, i don't even know what the GH tester show, but 11 drops in 5ml of water before it turned green (its a GH tester), so that means 11 0d according to the badly translated manual

There is a conversion table in the GH manual:
alkaline mmol/l 0,18
alkaline mval/l 0,375
Germ degree 0d 1,00
ppm CaCO3 17,80
Eng degree 1,25
french degree 1,78

Is this kH? or this something else i have to test?

I have some water in a bowl i'll test tommorow night, but when i tested the tap water it read >7.4 . I have a high Ph tester i can test with as well to see how high above 7.4 if need be

Cheers guys



Last edited by simon50508861 at 05-Apr-2005 07:42

Since you have a pH tester, please take some tap water and test it out of the tap. Then, place about a cup into a shallow glass bowl. Swirl it any time you walk by or hourly. 24 hours later, test pH from that bowl.

Compressed gases can create a different pH than when the gases in the water are equalized with that in the atmosphere. In order to know your true pH, we need to do this test, then compare with the 6.2 in your tank.

With a 6.2 pH, I really want to see the kH and your true tap pH with gases equalized.

It is wise to keep the changes small, but you will need to do many changes. You can do 10%, but do two of those daily until your nitrates are down and your pH is closer to your true pH. I have a feeling it is not that low.