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Whetu - regarding Blue Circle's apparent lack of knowledge - I wouldn't be surprised.. Most companies involved in the aquarium trade here in ol' NZ don't seem to have the foggiest clue ;-) I only guessed it had Meth Blue because of the colour , the speed with which the colour fades when you treat the tank, and the fact that it turned all my plant roots blue ;-)

Babelfish - isn't 35 C a little hot for the fish themselves? I've only ever dared raise my temp to maybe 27 for Ich, so I suspect I made it worse.. :-P Although maybe it could still help if it forces the trophonts into the water, the meds can get them, can't they?

Whetu - I also live in Auckland (And use Hollywood Mt Roskill - very cool store) :-)

Anywayz - regarding Blue Circle - I've used it in the past to cure white spot in my clown loaches quite successfully, although you may need to do two treatments. :-P

I'm not 100% certain, but I think the active ingredient is Methylene Blue... It just lowers the tomite concentration in the water enough for your fish to fight off the infection - it won't kill the trophonts etc.

I'd say the Malkon is the stuff to use simply because it says what is in it, and the Malachite Green should do it...That would be my vote...I'll run off and try to find Gary, he is the Loach Person ...Best of luck...we could always send you "the ich" meds Heidi




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He should be on his way soon...

Last edited by BBNP at 03-Jan-2005 21:11

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Thanks heidi
*waits for gary*
*itches*

Edit: forgot to mention the water perameters...
pH: 7.0
Ammonia (NH3/NH4): 0.0
Nitrite (NO2): 0.0
Nitrate (NO3): 0.0
These are all normal readings for this tank (I have no idea why it never seems to have any nitrates). The water is classed as "very soft"

The platies are a new addition to the tank, and although I quarantined them for 10 days I'm looking at them suspiciously as the source of this outbreak.

All fish are eating and behaving as usual except that they are scraping themselves against the drift wood and the substrate. It makes me itchy just watching them.

Last edited by whetu at 03-Jan-2005 22:19

You have my sympathies Whetu.. I know what you mean by feeling itchy just looking at them!

I'd recommend bumping that temp up a few more degrees while you come to a decision over medication. I'd also tentatively suggest that you could treat these fish without meds, with a higher water temperature over 7 - 10 days..

x

There's very little choice with meds when treating Clowns...

Here in the States "Rid Ich Plus" has been successful, to some degree, in treating the loaches. The dyes like Malachite Green and Methylene Blue, used straight or in mixtures in ich meds, have not been successful in treating wild caught Clowns and tend to stain everything in the tank including the glass seals.

The only sure fire way to treat Clowns without meds is to raise the temp to 95 degrees for one week and increase the surface water movement to allow for more oxygen exchange.

I've suggested to others to incorporate this high heat treatment and they have reported complete success with minor stress to other species in the tank.

Clowns, by their very nature, love warm tank water that's kept constantly at 86 degrees, 30c, so they tolerate excessive high temps very well.

It's reported that after the high heat treatment, Clowns develop an immunity to the ich parasite and other species may also enjoy the benefits.

Add another heater if necessary to reach that degree and again, make sure the water surface is moving at a fast clip.

--garyroland.

Thanks Mal and Gary

ok, higher temperatures it is! The barbs already look like someone's playing them at 45rpm, but they're tough fish so I'm sure they'll be fine.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Whetu,

Down here in Wellington my LFS (Animates) sells a product called 'Spot Off'. I've used it with success. I also had a problem with ich in my 5ft tank but the cost of dosing that size tank was a bit of a problem. I too followed Gary's advice by raising the temp slowly up to 30 degrees and within a couple of weeks all cleared up, thanks gary

Am I correct in thinking you're in Auckland. Last time I was up in Auckland I went to Hollywoods in Albany and they had a good range of meds. They also have a store in Mt Eden I think.

Anyway, try the raising temp scenario and let us know how you go.

Good luck.

Robbie

This high heat treatment calls for 35c Robbie, not 30c...

Clowns, as I mentioned, do enjoy very warm tanks and do well at a constant 30c but sad to say other trops may not appreciate that warm a tank.

--garyroland.

Thanks for your reply, Robbie. Yep, I'm in Auckland. Hollywood Mt Roskill and Jansen's on Mt Eden Road are my local fish stores. I consider myself lucky to have two good stores so near by, but both of them only sell Malkon and Blue Circle White Spot Cure.

I'm going to try the temperature increase thing and see how I go. Everyone in the tank was in good condition before the ich outbreak so I hope they'll all handle the increased temps well. And the loaches will have a great time in their nice hot bath!

Just a minute... 35 degrees does seem very warm My favourite temperature for a spa pool is 37 deg C... so 35 really is like being in a hot bath! Gary, can you confirm that 35 degrees C is the temperature you meant?

I can confirm the 35F, 95F. You can find older reports of ich dying @temps as low as 85, I'd come across alot more recent studies showing that in order to KILL it needs 35/95 and above. I was able to eliminate it from my 20 by having the temp reach 98....not on purpose of course .... all the occupants @the time survived and are still swiming to this day 3 in the tank one elsewhere .

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Ok maybe my heading is a little melodramatic New Zealand is not a Third World country most of the time... UNTIL IT COMES TO ICH MEDS ]:|

My clown loaches (and presumably everyone else in the tank) have ich. I've never had this disease before, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is: it looks like tiny grains of sand, or tiny tiny bubbles, scattered all over the fish. Some have it just on their tails and fins, others have it over their whole bodies.

So I read all about ich in this forum and rushed off to the LFS for meds. They have only 2 options for treating ich. I bought a bottle of each, but which should I use and how?

1) Blue Circle White Spot Cure
Directions: add 9 drops per gallon (2 drops per litre). Usually one treatment is sufficient. If the parasite persists repeat the dose after 3 days. Do not administer more than 3 consecutive doses unless you do a total water change between the 3rd and 4th dose. It is not necessary to discontinue filtration or increase water temperature.

It does not list active ingredients. I'm sceptical about its claim that one dose will be enough, after what I've read about the ich life cycle. The LFS people said it's fine for clown loaches, but without knowing the ingredients I'm sceptical about that too.

2) Malkon - malachite green solution
Directions: add 1 drop per litre each day until 4 days after all signs of infection have disappeared. In severe infections double first dose. Active ingredient: malachite green 0.2% w/v in aqueous solution

The LFS people said that the Malkon may be too strong for the loaches. Actually the White Spot Cure looks exactly like the Malkon. I suspect it's the same stuff, just a weaker solution (it was about half the price).

Tank specs:
Size: 32 US Gallons (122 litres)
Temp: usually 26 deg C (79 deg F) raised to 28 deg C (80 deg F) today
Stock: 5 clown loaches between 2 and 3 inches long (5 to 8 cm), 6 gold barbs of a similar size, 4 ottos, 4 adult platies and a million platy fry
Filtration: Eheim pro 2026 (no carbon)
Tank is heavily planted with a gravel substrate

Methylene Blue, Malachite Green and Victoria Green all are dyes used in many ich meds...

Because of the inefficient properties of the dyes to guarantee good results, other meds are mixed in to boost the killing power of the dyes.

Years ago, before the commercial mixes were available, we used increased heat, the dyes in pure form and salt to try and kill the ich parasite. It was purely hit and miss, believe me.

I do not promote the high heat treatment with no meds unless the hobbyist is aware that high temps deplete dissolved oxygen in the water, thus the purpose for increasing the gas-out-oxygen-in exchange by rapid water surface movement.

--garyroland.

dedicated white spot remover or ich treatment always does trick, just use lower dose for loaches i guess. If your local LFS doesnt stock what you need, always be sure to find what you need at an online store.

Does the heat actually kill the parasite? I see a lot of conflicting info on the net - some people say it kills, others say it just accelerates the life cycle to get the trophonts off your fish. Maybe it depends on the exact temperature?

I'm pretty sure that the Blue Circle claims you don't need to increase heat, but if you saw the bottle you'd be suspicious - it's not the most professional looking stuff, and it's dirt cheap. :-P

Having said that, it did work for me with only a very mild heat increase.

geesloper, you're absolutely right about the dodgy label! Especially the claims that one treatment is enough and it isn't necessary to discontinue filtration or increase temperature (no mention of removing carbon from the filter).

It got even dodgier when I phoned the manufacturer today to ask what the active ingredients were and they said they "didn't kinow if they would be willing to tell me." When I explained that I wanted to know if it was safe to use with clown loaches she said "of course it's safe! It's even been tested and everything!" I got the impression she didn't even know what a clown loach was. :%)

Anyway, yesterday I increased the temp to 30 deg C and today it's on its way up to 35 despite my misgivings. I've also done a gravel vac, a 30% water change (at the proper temp) and added the Blue Circle White Spot Cure. Now I'm keeping a very very close eye on the loaches.

If the active ingredient in the White Spot Cure is malachite green, it is de-activated by organic matter and absorbed by porous materials. In my heavily planted, driftwood-heavy tank I have no idea how to calculate a safe dose for the loaches. And I don't actually know if that is the active ingredient. All I can do is watch for any signs of distress and be ready to do a water change to dilute the meds if necessary.

*chews fingernails and waits*

Last edited by whetu at 05-Jan-2005 01:47

Whet U,

I live in the tropics, so my main problem is keeping the temperature DOWN. But one of the side effects is that the tank is almost ich proof. I've had the rare outbreak in the past (usually after the intro of new fish). I have never treated the tank with anything. It never seems to get a grip , not more then a few spots and usually disappears in a couple of days. I haven't seen Ich in many months. I put all this down to the relatively high temperature of the water. My water comes out of the tap at about 28o and that's the "cold" tap. Outside temp is normally 32 -35o. Ich just doesn't like warm water.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

You were not supposed to add any ich med...

You are risking the death of the Clowns who may not be able to tolerate the high temp and the med.

--garyroland.

geesloper
Both are accurate. Which is why most people end up simply speeding up the life cycle of the ich instead of killing it. Warmer temps speed up the cycle, once the cyst falls off (the point where most people think it's "killed" it is suceptable to the meds that are in the tank (ich is not killed when it is on the fish).

However temps over 95F, 35C and ich can NOT survive. Similar to the fact that ich cannot hangle salt. This is why these methods worked before there were the number of ich meds that are availible to most of us.... If it werent for the clowns, and the fact that whetu's not a newbie, I'd never suggest using temp only as a way of killing ich...I still wouldnt' reccomend salt....

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I'm only talking Clown Loaches here...

Under normal circumstances, many ich meds would work for other species, some without heat increase, some with.

Since so many ick meds kill wild caught Clowns, many will not take the risk, especially those with a high number of Clowns, so just high heat is incorporated.

--garyroland.

Last edited by garyroland at 05-Jan-2005 10:23

oops gary Yeah it was meant to be temp OR meds, not both, right? The temp hasn't reached 35 deg C yet - the regular heater doesn't seem to be able to maintain anything above 31 degrees, so I've just added a second one.

I'll do another water change to dilute the meds before I hike the temp up a notch. Of course I knew "one treatment is sufficient" was too good to be true, but I just couldn't resist trying.

The loaches are still severely spotty, the barbs are swimming at a million miles an hour, but nobody seems distressed. Except me.