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Two of my Columbian tetras have developed a white upper lip. Could this be ich?

BlueMerlin
What does it look like? Ich is normally small white dots all over the body of the fish. If it is more fuzzy looking it may be "mouth fungus" or columnaris which requires drastically different medication methods.
Also, it may be useful to know your tank size, perameters, and other fish in the tank. Also, do any other fish appear to have the same problem.
Hopefully we can figure out what it is and how to fix it
Jen

Thanks JenBabe

My tank is 46 gallons and is stocked with:
7 Columbian tetras
3 julii cories
1 common pleco
1 midas cichlid
1 jack dempsey
2 jewel cichlids
2 parrot heads

Only the 2 columbian tetras are exhibiting this problem, no other fish appear to have it. The white lip is not a spot or cluster of spots but actually a white patch. 1 tetra has a bigger patch than the other. Close examination suggests that it might be damage to the nose, but I don't know. The tetra that has the most damage has a couple of white spots on the tail fin. This may be ich, but maybe the fish is stressed from the nose problem? It might be "fuzzy" but its hard to tell.

One thing to mention is the jewel cichlids are breeding, fry were spotted this morning, and it may have got into a tussle with one of those? The tetras have been showing this white lip for about 2 or 3 weeks. I thought it was damage and hoped it would heal.

Also, the tank is well established, set at about 80 deg, and all the fish in there have been living well for several months (most for over a year). However, I did have an Oscar die within the last week.

Might be a disease, might be physical damage. Interesting that two fish of the same type are showing the same symptoms though.

Many thanks for your help.

Last edited by BlueMerlin at 20-Feb-2005 12:42

Last edited by BlueMerlin at 20-Feb-2005 12:47

I have found that a number of Tetra species seem to be e to this kind of thing when something goes off in the tank. I have to say, I normally notice it after periods of tank neglect in my case, and a few diligent weeks of catching up on scrubbing and water changes tends to clear the symptoms up for most of them. I have had some that will continue to show the white lip (in my experience it's been the lower lip area and jaw) for a long period of time regardless, and in one severe case had two Serpeas that lost their entire lower jaw and died from starvation. In all cases it was only one species that showed any symptoms at all, even though I have had up to 8 different types of Tetras in the tank at the same time.

Because of my past experience I would recommend that you try and isolate the two that are showing the symptoms and treat it as mouth fungus. Since they have had the condition for a while already, you can probably take your time and try not to disturb the cichlid fry. For now, keep the water as clean as you can without doing anyone any damage (not sure about jewels and fry care during disturbance, but think it's best to be cautious!) and keep your eye on everyone. If you notice the spots growing larger or changing in any way I would not delay treatment any longer.

Good luck!
L.

Last edited by littlecatjoe at 20-Feb-2005 16:11

Please check this link out:

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It sounds like either columnaris, ammonia burns, or some kind of injury, but I really can't say without more information. Please answer the questions listed in that post, we'll be better able to help you if we can get a better idea of what is going on in the tank.

In the meantime, the only thing I would dose for the tank is melafix and pimafix which are gentle, all-natural and safe for fry, and will aid in healing wounds and combatting fungus if that is the problem. Keep the tank clean but don't overdo it.

I am concerned with the stock you mentioned in this tank. In general it doesn't sound like an ideal mix but I would prefer to get more information about the state of the tank before I post more on that.

Sorry I can't be of more help but like I said, I can't really answer a whole lot without further information.

I have done some water tests, and nothing unusual there.

Ammonia less than 0.025ppm.
Nitrite less than 0.1ppm.
pH is about 7.0-7.2

My tank is well established for over a year, and I don't use any additives other than "Stress Free" to dechlorinate the water changes. The fish seem happy, and two are even breeding.

Fish sizes are as follows:
7 Columbian tetras (about 1" each)
3 julii cories (less than 1" each)
1 common pleco (about 3" each)
1 midas cichlid (about 4" each)
1 jack dempsey (about 4" each)
2 jewel cichlids (about 2" each)
2 parrot heads (about 2.5" each)
That's about 30" total.

The tank is 46 gallons and is filtered using a Penguin Biowheel 170, and I also have a small air pump for bubbles and water circulation.

I also have a 55 gallon tank which is cycling with 5 black widow tetras (about 10 days) I could use to rearrange fish.



Last edited by BlueMerlin at 20-Feb-2005 17:22

Last edited by BlueMerlin at 20-Feb-2005 17:23

Ok there are a few peoblems here that I can see so I'm going to take this step by step:

I have done some water tests, and nothing unusual there.

Ammonia less than 0.025ppm.
Nitrite less than 0.1ppm.
pH is about 7.0-7.2

In an established tank you should have ZERO ammonia and nitrite. Anything that isn't zero should be considered abnormal and reason for concern as they are signs that something isn't right in there. Levels of ammonia as low as what you're showing in that tank have been shown to cause stress in fish. The white spots you're seeing could very well be ammonia burns or wounds that aren't healing properly in less-than-perfect water.

So, I suggest that you do a water change as soon as possible, change about 30-40% to get those numbers under control. I would also suggest treatment with a combination of Melafix and Pimafix to guard those wounds from infection as they are healing and get rid of any minor fungus you have going on there. If you are able to get ammonia and nitrite to zero ppm and are dosing with melafix/pimafix and the wounds have not improved at all in 3-4 days, you may need to treat with some stronger medication.

I think it would also be a good idea to dose with some sort of bacterial starter like New & Improved Cycle or BioSpira to seed your biological filter and get it working properly. If you want, you can pick up a bottle of Amquel or Prime, which are water conditioners that will neutralize the ammonia in the tank and make it less toxic for the fish during treatment.

If you can get a nitrate test, please get one and test your water for it ASAP. based on the other information provided in your post I'm guessing your nitrates are probably through the roof.

Your filter is very inadequate for the tank size and will need to be upgraded immediately. The penguin 170 is just not capable of dealing with that amount of waste. As a rough, basic guideline you want the water turnover rate in your tank to be between 8-10 times per hour. With the penguin 170 on a 46 gallon tank you're looking at a turnover rate of about 3.5 times per hour. This could explain why you have ammonia and nitrite in the tank, as the water isn't being moved through the filter quickly enough for the bacteria to get a hold on the waste in the tank. A smaller filter also means less surface area to be populated with beneficial bacteria. For a tank that size I suggest a minimum hang on back filter that will give you 400 GPH, 500 GPH would be ideal.

TANK STOCK:

7 Columbian tetras (about 1" each)
3 julii cories (less than 1" each)
1 common pleco (about 3" each)
1 midas cichlid (about 4" each)
1 jack dempsey (about 4" each)
2 jewel cichlids (about 2" each)
2 parrot heads (about 2.5" each)
That's about 30" total.

The Midas and Jack Dempsey cichlids are both fairly large, very aggressive species that are too big to be kept in a 46 gallon aquarium. The jack dempsey has an eventual size of over 9 inches and the midas will grow to be over a foot long. The jewel cichlids are very aggressive and reach about 5 inches depending on the species. Regardless of size, housing these fish together (especially in a 46 gallon tank) is asking for an eventual bloodbath as there is not enough room for all of them to establish territory. if your jewels are breeding, then yes the rest of your fish are at risk.

The "parrot heads" are most likely cichlid hybrids which can be very unpredictable in temperment. They are either very aggressive or very peaceful according to what I've heard from other hobbyists who keep them. They should never be kept with other cichlids (especially south american) because of the risk of aggression. You also don't want them breeding with anything else in the tank, hybrids of hybrids are just bad news. Personally I don't keep hybrids and never will but this isn't the place for that kind of debate. Parrots reach close to 9" or so and are also too large to be housed with your other fish.

Columbian tetras and your corydoras are peaceful community tank fish that I'm sorry to say will eventually become a very expensive lunch for the larger cichlids in the tank. They will need to be removed as soon as possible. if you move any of the larger cichlids you have in there in with the black widow tetras they will also be eaten.

So, you will need to do some serious restocking and reworking of your aquarium setups that you currently have. I'm sorry, I know it is bad news but in the best interest of your fish something needs to be done as soon as possible. You need to either buy more tanks or sell/return some of those fish. If you have any questions about reworking the stock of your tanks, please post them.

Thanks for the comments. The ammonia and nitrites are zero. They didn't register at all in the test but I noted the lowest level of accuracy with my test kit.

As I said, I do have two tanks now, and am considering reshuffling the fish. I'm not against returning some fish to the lfs.

The 46 gallon is working well with the filter I have, but I can see your point when the fish get bigger. I do a water change every week,and I am convinced that the water quality is very good, but I will get the water checked for nitrates as you suggest.

My plan is to move the columbian tetras into the 55 gallon with the black widows, and based on your comment I will also move the cories (I plan to get some more cories). I am waiting for the tank to cycle before I do that though, although I'm tempted to do it straight away as I understand that columbian tetras are hardy. It would also enable me to treat them for whatever is causing the white lip.

The midas and jack dempsey often face off against each other. I like the jack dempsey more... it was a bland little fish when I first got him but now he's a very elegant black with blue spots. The midas just looks like a glorified goldfish.

The parrot heads are peaceful, and don't hassle any of the other fish.

The jewels behave OK except(of course) when they have babies. I was thinking of moving them into the larger tank to give them more space. The new tank also has larger gravel, so this may deter them from breeding.

What do you think? Thanks!

Last edited by BlueMerlin at 21-Feb-2005 10:25