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OK I have a 24 gallon tank with a clowen loach that is a good 4-6 inches and a few random ciclids. and 2 parrot fish. and i also have a blue lobster in there.

OK we had an ich break out so i went and bought coppersafe. i treated with 6 teaspoons like the bottle said ( 1 teaspoon per 4 gallons). ok but i miss understood the directions and treated the tank 2 days in a row...

the instruction on coppersafe SUCK. do i need to only treat once a month or do i need to treat for a month?

sorry i am a fish newbie and i am tring to learn.

the tank is at 80 -81 degrees.

thank you

oh and i have the filters that have carbon inside them should i just take the filter out or some how empty the carbon out of it?

Please do a partial water change of at least 30% today, then do another one tomorrow of that much. Make sure the water temp is identical going in. Ich can be brought on by chilling, even if the temp drops a mere 3-4F.

Your tank is basically overcrowded and possibly mismatched in terms of stock. That = stress for fish that are being harassed. Cichlids basically go into a species tank, with some exceptions. The lobster will prey on fish, especially those resting on the bottom. They will be in a constant state of stress as they worry about being caught. The loaches will get very big, but luckily for you, they will grow slow. I recommend taking the losbster back, if you can. Then, something may need to be done about the mismatched mix of cichlids and clowns. I may be wrong, so please verify what I'm saying in the cichlid forum or bottom feeder forum. Ask if they are compatible, or an accident waiting to happen. Either way, ich is brought on by some type of stress.

I'll be surprised if the lobster survives as copper is highly deadly to inverts. However, he does have an exoskeleton. According to Mardel's pamphlet, snails and other soft-bodied inverts should be removed. They don't necessarily exclude or say that it is safe for lobsters.

I'm suggesting the water changes because Coppersafe may be ok for the loaches at full strength, but not a double strength. You may need to follow up with yet one more 30% change to get the level back where it should be. If the fish are highly stressing from it, then you can do two back to back water changes, provided they are several hours apart. That is better than a large 60% change all at once, which can also be shocking.

I hope this helps. Be patient and be open minded about your stock list as that may be contributing to the ich situation. They are trying to tell you something. Unfortunately, fish store personnel will let you cram 6 goldfish into a 10 gallon tank when it is the worst thing you can do. Or, they will sell some kid all kinds of sharks and plecs that grow too aggressive for a 10 gallon or just too big (plecs grow over a foot in no time). Its awful.

I highly recommend dosing the tank with something like Melafix or Pimafix at the same time. These are botanicals and function as antiseptics. With ich comes body fungus really easy - a nasty bacterial infection. By having Melafix in the water or Pimafix, you lessen the chance of the bite wounds infecting. Prevention is easier than the cure.

One more thing.....parameters - what are they? Where does your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate stand? And, your pH. Please don't tell me "it's ok" or "within range". I'm looking for numbers. If these fish are dealing with even a 0.25 ammonia or nitrite, you have one more stressor. If the nitrates are really high, you have another stressor.

Diane

Last edited by Cory_Di at 28-Feb-2005 21:34

Last edited by Cory_Di at 28-Feb-2005 21:36

well we have had the clown and the lobster and the ciclids for about 3 years so far and no problem. we also had a large parrot fish the passed away a few weeks ago due to a loss of power for a long period while we were away for the weekend. ( have since bought a UPS)

I will do the 30% water change tonight. so you only treat with copper safe once and it lasts for a month?

I am still a little confused

Yes. Copper is highly stable, but in some conditions like planted tanks, it can be soaked up. Only a copper tester will tell you how high the level is and whether that is happening. According to Mardel, the best way to reduce the amount of copper is through water changes. My experience with it is that activated carbon does not pull it out.

Copper can remain in the water a long time. If you have no plants or other organics in the tank, and never did a water change - only toping your tank off, the copper would still be there for a very long time. That is why mardel recommends only adding more when you do a partial water change to keep the level up. We want to do the opposite now, so we need to reduce the amount through water changes.

For some parasites, it becomes necessary to keep up a therapeutic level for up to 30 days. Coppersafe is capable of that, but as you do your weekly water changes (hopefully, weekly), you need to approximate how much goes back in. It may be only 1/8 tsp if you did a 20 or 30% change. Just don't add more during these next few changes.

If the tank is 3 years old, I'm curious as to what the ammonia, nitrite and especially, the nitrate and pH are running. Tanks can also undergo old tank syndrome, which would stress the fish. Only the numbers will tell us.

Is there anything you can think of that may have stressed them? Or, did you simply add a new fish to the tank that may have carried it in?

the only change has been the new parrot fish. and the levels i dont have a tester ( i am a horrible fish mommy) :#(

Naw - you made a mistake. A horrible fish mommy is one who just doesn't give a rip. We've seen a few of those pass through. They have one mishap after another and don't take any advice. You posted as soon as you thought there was a problem. Besides, you've had success if you've kept the lobster and clowns together all this time

Just do the partial water changes. The Parrot may have had a spot in a gill or elsewhere and brought it into the tank.

Hang in there and be patient with the copper safe once you get it down some. I know people who have used it full strength without affecting their clowns, but we just don't want to go over that. It's ok, if it is a little less than full strength, but not more, so I'd do a minimum of 3, 30% changes. Just keep the replacement water within 1-1.5F.

The fish will love you for the water changes if you respect their needs for pretty constant temp during teh process

Lets look at those parameters too (take a bag of water to the fish store) and if possible bag some water before the water changes start, before you do the second change, if its too late. Take pen and paper and write down the numbers. They love to talk in generalities - we need numbers.

You really need to get a mild antibacterial in there to keep the fish from getting infected. That's half the battle. If you don't have any, pick some up when you take a bag of water to the fish store, hopefully soon.

Keep us posted


Last edited by Cory_Di at 28-Feb-2005 23:16

what is the bagged water for?

ok so i should do another 30% change tomorrow? and agian the next day?

Thank you so much for your help

oh and what should i do with the eclipse filter with carbon inside?

Last edited by petcrazed at 28-Feb-2005 23:17

Well, copper is so stable that activated carbon doesn't really filter it out. You could leave it, but if you dose the tank with the Melafix or Pimafix to prevent infection, it will filter it out, unless it is aged at least a week or two. It's up to you. The safest route is to remove it but wait until after that last water change as maybe it is filtering some of it out.

Yes, 3 - 30% water changes. That's not quite getting 100% of the second dose out, but close. You could followup a day later with one more change of 15% or so to be sure.

If you put some of your tank water in a bag, you can take it to most any fish store and request the following tests:

Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:
pH:
kH:

If your pH is really low, we can look at the kH to see if it needs a little buffering. Asking for it up front will save us time. The others are needed to see if you are in a mini-cycle or are going through "Old Tank Syndrome". Your nitrates are also something good to look at. If they are really high - into the 100's, then the immunity of your fish can be compromised. WAter changes keep nitrates in check and we like to keep them below 40ppm and ultimately below 20ppm. They won't kill your fish, but can weaken their immune system.

Sound like a plan? Your tank could use a check up anyway so we may as well do it now. Later, you may consider purchasing a master test kit. When you are ready, let us know and we'll give you some online stores you can really get them cheaply at - like 14.99 for a complete master set. I've seen the same kit in fish stores for about $28 bucks.

Are you in the US? Didn't think to ask. It helps if you set your flag so we know for meds and recommendations.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 28-Feb-2005 23:29

I should have asked what kind of filter you have. If the activated carbon is in something like a Bio Bag and you have no other filter media, then leave the activated carbon in place. You need the good bacteria on the bag to eat ammonia and nitrite and keep them in control. Removing such a bag at this time would cause a mini-cycle.

Try to describe your filter. Is it an undergravel? Is it a biowheel? Is it a whisper filter or aquaclear? Try to describe how the activated carbon fits in and whether there is a sponge or separate media to house good bacteria.

it is an eclipse system which is a blue filter part on top of a container of activated charcole. then after the filter is a bio wheel.

and this is all after the pump so its ontop of the tank bulit in the hood

Last edited by petcrazed at 28-Feb-2005 23:38

Ok, no problem then. The BioWheel holds your primary colony, provided its flowing and wet. The cartride also holds good bacteria, but your primary colony is on the wheel. Some of the older power filters combined too much into one and when you changed out the carbon, you threw out your colony . They are making separate sponges now.

Well, I'm off to bed (Michigan, USA). Let me know what country you are in so I don't recommend something you can't use or do . I'm assuming US or Canada since you are using Mardel.


Last edited by Cory_Di at 28-Feb-2005 23:41

I am in the US

Please refer to my ich thread about "Clown Loach w/Possible Ich"

Tammy did some wonderful investigative work and discovered, by calling Hagen, that AquaPlus water conditioner neutralizes copper. Hence, no results when treating with COpperSafe if you are using something that removes "heavy metals." (at least in the case of AquaPlus).

Good luck