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ICK!!...80gal tank with large Red Irian rainbows, 2 large roseline sharks,3 6inch clown loaches oh and 2 Madagasgar rainbows.. pleco of course..
I added 5 days ago..yes, without quarantine 3 Ctenopoma leopard gouramis..and Ick has broken out.
I know they are docile fish very peaceful, but there is so much room for them..DW and lots of plants..there was no problems to be seen for a few days..and they were fine when i brought them home..I run a LFS so I know my fish..has to be the cold night that it was..or something.
I have used Noxick 3 days done wc and dosed again..
Eheim 2217, taken carbon out etc..turned up heat, turned out lights..Ive dealt with it before in my other tank..but rid the tank before it even hits another fish..but this time the clowns have it and Im worried..
Im not currently testing my water as it is never really needed..my tank is balanced so to speak and never have problems with it so I dont test. Been keeping fish for a long time..I look after my tanks daily and weekly.
both rainbows are swimming in my spray bar flow..never seen that..did a water change last night and treated again this morning..
par are tho 7.2-7.5 has always stayed within that range
N02 0 No3 0.10 GH and KH are always high always have been 180 for both..all mt tank range that
I dont use Co2 but dose with sera florena liquid fert.
and have used 3 day total before the new fish flourish excel to keep and rid beard algae..
where can i go from here??
ive turned down heat as i feel they need air? and cant breath..
did notice the 1 gouramis had red gill, heavy breathing for the clowns too, but do stay at the bottom still.
any advice?
Sue

gezzz not the same site it used to be...would have been nice to have someone respond with something....oh well
I should have known better as to not introduce fish to my tank...
Ive lost all three clowns.. 1 rainbow of wach pair and tank looks no better..
what I will need to know if I can find out is how do I go about cleanning out the tank, should I strip it?? just up water changes for a bit??..In a few months I would like to run it again with fish..just at a loss as to how to go about it??
Im thinking of taking the remaining fish out as they look more stressed that they are alone

Hi Sue,
I'm a bit surprised that you'd had no suggestions by now as
well. Keith must be busy with the holiday season as he
is usually "Johnny on the spot" with his "famous" Ich
lecture.

However, in reading your initial post, with the
exception of the medication, which I am not familiar
with, you seem to have done everything right.
You raised the temperature which speeds up the
life cycle of the parasite.
You took the carbon out of the filter which would
remove some of the "components" of the medication,
and you adjusted the spray bar angle to rile the
surface more which breaks the surface tension and
oxygenates the water more.

To immediately resolve the problem, I would remove all
of the remaining fish to a second, much smaller tank,
a plain, glass bottomed, hospital tank. Set the tank
over a black surface (construction paper) which will
prevent additional stress to the fish as they would
see their reflection below them and think there
was another fish below them tracking their movements.

In there, I'd replicate the standard ich medication routine
with increased temperature, dimmer light (perhaps only
one bulb vs two) and a sponge filter.
Run the medication for another cycle of prescribed days,
and then hold them for at least another week.

As for the main tank, I'd jack the temperature up to, say
85 degrees, keep the filter running without carbon,
and continue to medicate it. In this case, with all the
fish out of it, your only concern would be the plants and
I would continue to treat them with your fertilizer routine.
Leave the lights on, normal strength and for
the normal cycle.

Needless to say, you have learned the hard way, to always
quarantine your fish, to have adequate heater(s) and how
expensive it is to treat a large tank vs a smaller hospital
tank.

Hope the suggestions help...
Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

hey Frank... yah Ive learnt the hard way..Ive many yrs experience in fish keeping..adding the fish was just plain dumb..
you know I know the rules even if they dont have any signs of sickness it dont mean ...
its funny tho..I just dont think it was ick..looks like it but not..bacterial?? velvet?? it all happen so fast..Im at a loss for words
from here I will do what you mentioned...I dont want to take the tank down completely, but if Im not adding any fish for a few weeks or longer then it wouldnt hurt.
i tryed the hospitaltank a 5.5 gal for the 2 clowns, but they died by morning..clowns are hard to treat, ick cure or salt..they are the ones I miss the most..
my 2 Red Irain rainbow who were 5-6 inches long I miss the dancing and spinning they did every night they looked like a match made in heaven..lol
thanks for your help...Im taking out the pleco and hes going to my work and the 2 roseline sharks I will treat in the hospital tank..one has signs of ick?? the other not??..weird
thanks sue

http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp633%3A9%3Enu%3D7964%3E382%3E259%3EWSNRCG%3D335862%3A87934%3Anu0mrj
http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp733%3C3%3Enu%3D7964%3E382%3E259%3EWSNRCG%3D335862%3A87%3B34%3Anu0mrj
http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp63248%3Enu%3D7964%3E382%3E259%3EWSNRCG%3D335862%3A88534%3Anu0mrj
http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp73399%3Enu%3D7964%3E382%3E259%3EWSNRCG%3D335862%3A87734%3Anu0mrj
http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp733%3B9%3Evq%3D7964%3E382%3E259%3EWSNRCG%3D335863%3B2%3C434%3Avq0mrj
http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp6339%3B%3Evq%3D7964%3E382%3E259%3EWSNRCG%3D335863%3A2%3B934%3Avq0mrj

Hi Sue,
There is a difference between Ich and Velvet.
The classic Ich, visible symptom, is white spots that
look like grains of salt on the fish's body.
Velvet shows up as a golden or rusty powdery coating
on the fish that generally starts around the gills
and eventually covers the fish.
Fortunately, both problems are treated with the application
of copper. Check to see if the doseages are the same for
each disease.

You really don't have to tear the tank down. It is, of
course, an option, but there is no way to be sure that
you have eliminated the cause. The best way is to treat
with medication for at least the length of time
recommended on the container. Tearing a tank down is
a huge task, and cleaning it and anything that is in the
tank, properly, destroys the Nitrogen Cycle, puts the
plants through the wringer, and usually all for no real
reason.

Yes, I knew you knew the correct procedures. We all cut
corners and cross our fingers at times. You just happened
to win the jackpot.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Frank I am still around.

Sue.
There is no sure short cut to completely remove Ich. You must follow all the correct steps otherwise it will keep coming back and back again until it finally kills every thing in your tank.
Keith

Here is a lot of very useful information about Ich I strongly suggest you copy and print this out for future reference.
If you have any more questions please ask.


WHITE SPOT ICH

White spot Parasite, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis

This disease is easy to recognise, as the skin of the infected fish becomes covered with white spots, each the size of a pinhead. Each spot represents the site of one, or sometimes two, parasites. All parts of the body gills, may be attacked.

The causative agent is named Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. It is a spherical and large by protozoan standards, measuring up to 1mm in diameter. Short, hair-like processes known as cilia are spread densely over the surface. A horseshoe-shape nucleus is also present which is clearly visible under the microscope.

By the means of the cilia the parasite rotates vigorously and burrows into the surface layer (epidermis) of its host. It feeds on skin cells and surface debris. The burrowing action causes a local irritation and the epidermis grows across the parasite to enclose it, thus forming a “White Spot”

Reproduction occurs away from the host. After maturing in the skin, which takes a few days to three weeks, depending on the temperature, the parasite bores out, swims away and comes to rest on a submerged object such as a stone, or plant. Here it forms a jelly-like cyst within which a series of rapid cell divisions take place. In a few hours, several hundred daughter cells or swarmers, are produced, which break out of the cyst to find a new host. Alighting on the skin, they burrow in to recommence the life cycle. If they fail to find a host within three to four days, they perish.

Symptoms
If the protozoan is introduced into a tank containing healthy fish, little harm may occur, other than a fleeting infection with a few parasites. If however, the fishes are already weakened for some other reason, e.g. lack of oxygen, the parasite will quickly cover the whole body surface, causing irritation and opening up wounds for secondary infections. The host mobility may become affected. In sever cases, death may result.

Prevention
If white-spot appears in an otherwise healthy tank, the parasite “must” have been introduced either as an adult on a newly acquired fish, or as the cyst form on, for example new stones, a plant or even added water. The only certain method of prevention, is to quarantine all new stock, including stones, plants etc; preferably in water at a temperature of 77F. Allow one week’s quarantine.

Treatments
There are too many treatments today to recommend any specific one. Many can be bought easily at aquarium outlets.


Several very interesting points to think about.

Very easy to recognise.
Its reproduction cycle.
No host they will die.
If introduced into a healthy tank little harm may occur.
Pay attention to all tank details.
Weakened fish, and lack of oxygen can/may and will cause sever deaths. All this is usually caused by poor tank maintenance and/or incorrect and faulty equipment.
Prevention is the best cure
A Parasite “must” be introduced into the tank.

This information was collected from Fresh Water Tropical Fish
Compiled by Keith
*******************************************************

TREATING A TANK and Scaleless fish

Clown Loaches and other scaleless fish require a special White Spot cure. I have seen it said that this is not so just use any WS cure at half strength and that will do. That is totally wrong even at that strength it will become dangerous.

Only use the "CORRECT" WS cure and only use it at the correct dosage as per instruction on the bottle. Also check the UBD "Expire Date" to be on the safe side.

Melafix can be used in conjunction with the WS cure it will not cure it at all but it will reduce the stress on the fish.

Now for the treatment.
Only used the prescribed amount and times recommended.
Remove any carbon filters if you are using them.
Add extra air this is beneficial to the tank as well.
Bump up the temp slowly. By doing this it speeds up the growth rate of the Ich and this kills it quicker.
Turn of the lights if you have a fully planted tank this will not hurt for a few days at all.
Reduce the feeding by 50% they won’t feel like eating any way and you could easily have other problem with the uneaten food. I would feed them with small amounts of "Frozen Blood Worms" at least 3 time a week this will keep their strength up remember a healthy fish will survive the Ich problem a lot easier.

Treating the Tank
You might not see any WS after a week BUT it has not all gone and by this I mean the treatment must be continued for at least a total of 3-4 weeks. This might sound a long time but it will be worth it.

I would still carry out your weekly water changes and when you have completed the tank treatment a 50% of treated water change would help for the next two changes.

Then you can replace or add a carbon filter for at least 2 weeks and toss it out completely.

I have had WS with my CLs and they as well as all fish worth the extra time and effort in removing the Ich.

Finally take all the precautions and try not to get it again

***********************************************************Calilasseia
The key facts to remember about White Spot are:

[1] Only one part of the life cycle of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, the causative parasite, is susceptible to medication, which means that...

[2] Medication has to be applied even when the symptoms appear to have gone for up to 7 days afterwards, to make sure that all the susceptible stages of the parasite have been eliminated.

The parasite in question has a three stage life cycle. The part that manifests itself is the trophont or feeding stage. This stage burrows through the fish's slime coat, attaches itself to the outer layer of tissue or epithelium, and starts feeding upon the fish. This stage is impervious to medication because it forms a protective cyst around itself.

The next stage is the tomont stage. This forms when the parasite has ingested sufficient nutrients from the fish to begin reproduction. This stage is largely invisible in the aquarium, because it detaches from the fish, falls into the substrate, and remains encysted while it divides into daughter cells - something like 1,000 daughter cells for each tomont. Because it is encysted, it is impervious to medication again.

The third stage is the larval or tomite stage. Each daughter cell becomes a free swimming tomite, which is microscopic and invisible to the eye. At this point in the life cycle, the parasite is vulnerable to medication. The trouble is, of course, that the swarming tomites are microscopic, and so you can't actually see them directly with the naked eye, which means you have to keep medication levels in the aquarium maintained at sufficient concentration to kill the tomites for as long as they are likely to persist.

Depending upon temperature, the tomites could mutate into mature trophonts in as little as 3 days or take as long as 7 days. In an aquarium that contains solely Labyrinth Fishes; one means of dealing with the parasite is to increase the ambient aquarium temperature to 85 degrees Fahrenheit during the medication stage. This speeds up the parasite's life cycle, and ensures that the medication can destroy all the free-swimming microscopic tomites before they have a chance to attach themselves to a fish and begin the cycle anew.

With NON Labyrinth Fishes, however, this could induce unwanted additional respiratory stresses - Labyrinth Fishes can cope with this because they are able to breathe atmospheric air to compensate for the lower concentration of dissolved oxygen at higher water temperatures, but fishes that rely exclusively upon gill-based respiration cannot do this.

Some fishes such as Clown Loaches can be subjected to elevated temperatures as they experience these in the wild periodically, but it's not a good idea to do this with certain other fishes - Panda Corys spring to mind as one species that should NOT be subject to temperatures above 80 degrees F because they're inhabitants of cooler waters in their native Peru, and will die of heat stress if 'cooked' in this manner. So, depending upon ambient temperature, the tomites will appear in as little as 3 days, or you could be unfortunate and the tomites could take 7 days to appear. In cooler aquaria (e.g., a Panda Cory aquarium kept at 72 degrees F) you could be required to maintain medication for up to 14 days.

If the fishes can be moved to a hospital tank for treatment, and medicated there, this is preferable because you don't have to subject your main aquarium's biological filter to adverse effects from the medication - you can just destroy the parasites there. Removing the fishes from the main aquarium also has the advantage that any free swimming tomites that arise in the main aquarium are left with no hosts to attach to, and thus starves to death. So, at the end of your medication period in the hospital aquarium, you are free to return the fishes to the main aquarium.

Of course, your problem here is that you have to remember to add a small quantity of fish food to the main aquarium as if you were still feeding fishes so that the biological filter in the main aquarium is kept ticking over whilst the fishes themselves are temporarily rehoused. Once the fishes have been removed from the main aquarium, by the way, you can speed things up visa-vis destroying remaining parasites by increasing the temperature to 105 degrees F while the fishes are absent, which will speed up the life cycle considerably, and result in the accelerated production of tomites ... which then find themselves bereft of fishes to attach to. And, they starve to death quicker at the higher temperatures, because they use up their reserves more quickly.

Get yourself a cheap plastic aquarium that you're never going to use as anything BUT a hospital tank, put your fishes in that, medicate them, and then whack up the main aquarium temperature to 105 degrees while the fishes are in the 'hospital'. Once the fishes are free of parasites and have remained so for 7 days, you can return the main aquarium to its normal temperature and reintroduce the now treated fishes. Any watertight container that is safe to house fishes in (i.e., it hasn't ever been used to mix weedkiller or insecticide, and doesn't leach toxic material into the water) can be pressed into service as the 'hospital' for the duration, so long as it is possible to maintain aeration and some basic filtration (e.g., sponge filter) within the container during the medication phase. Oh, and

DO NOT use activated carbon filtration or ion exchange resins in the hospital aquarium because that will remove your medication!

Keith

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thamks again too you both...
As Ive read and really never knew that a healthy fish wont be bothered by Ick (or tank) for that matter. did I read that right??..
Like I said 1 roseline is effected and the other not, sumo loach is twitching and rapid movement but not signs on the body..All fish are in hospital tank and treating as I would, thus now the tank is empty..took your advice and raised the tank to high temps to kill it off and will continue to treat..
It took 3 days around to see noticable effects on my Red rainbows after the fish were added, just behavior not ick on fish, but he Cet. Gouramis had what I reconized as Ick, so thats when I took the means of treating the tank.
I thank you for the full out read on Ick and treatment, I had not even concidered to look it up.
What fish hobbish hasnt had ick..?? but I know Ive never treated a tank bigger than 40 so my large tank now, I probably didnt get enough treatment running at all times for it to be effective,when it was needed. I failed my fish
Ive never lost healthy fish to Ick, never!!
Ive lost neons and rummynose to ick in my 35 a few yrs back, when I added them..but not big healthy fish..my tank was healthy I know this..
starting this tank 2 yrs ago, I lost 1 rainbow to jumping out as it has a open top and lost a managasgar rainbow later on, they both lived in the tank for a number of months before this happen..
I had 4 angels in this tank and the biggest female killed off all of them.. as she paired up with her mate, then later she killed him?? ..she was nasty. she developed ulcers and then fungus?? took her out and treated, she lived another 4 months in a small tank..
thanks for your help.. I think the fish are going to make it..theye look good today

Hi Sue,
Yes, generally speaking a healthy fish will not
get Ich on its own, as its immune system will handle
most "stuff". In this particular case, fish secrete
a mucus that sloughs off particles such as a potential
Ich parasite, and acts as a barrier against other
problems. When weak, or in distress, the mucus production
slows and leaves the fish vunerable. Copper kills the
parasite in its free swimming stage, and, it irritates
the fish so that it produces more than normal mucus which
helps slough off potential problems. Those that have
managed to burrow into the fish are safe until they fall
off on their own. The increased mucus then fills the void
and the fish can start to mend at that site. The fish must
be healthy, be receiving quality food, and be in good
water quality, for it to recover from the infestation.

Glad you have a handle on it
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--