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How does the bacteria live... if there is no water? If you change ALL of the water, you run a very high risk of removing a good percentage of the bacteria, and having to start your cycle all over again. I would assume, if you did a 100% water change, you'd be smart enough to vacuum the tank and clean the filter. Thats what my first instinct would be seeing 100% water change. Which is why i said it will 'kill' your bacterial colonies. The other thing to consider is what the bacteria feeds on... Ammonia. New water, atleast out of my tap, contains no ammonia. So you'd put your cycled tank right back to square on and have to start again. 100% water changes are a BAD idea in an established tank, and certainly in one that is well filtered.

With fish like Loaches, that require good water conditions, this will be detrimental to their well being. Goldfish are tough... i've seen them live in some really crappy conditions quite happily. Just because you CAN do something with one fish type, does not mean you should be doing it, and certainly should not apply it to another fish type.

I take it you mean Alkalinity? If that's the case, have a read of this: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2002/chemistry.htm

I would not keep the 10G in your stand running with heater etc. It will most likely, slowly, damage your stand. If you don't have fish in it, there's really no point keeping it full of water anyway. When you need it, just take some water and gravel from your main tank, start the water heating, and add the fish.

I have not yet seen any more ick since all 5 loaches and one cichlid and a pleco have died.

When I tested my water my pH and Hardness and ALkinity were all off the charts. My water softner downstairs was failing. NOw its all good but alklinity? What is that?

Ans also, If I were to place a 10g hosp tank underneath my tank inside the wood cabinet, would the moisture realeased from the tank ruin my stand?

There, there, dear. I had a very bad case of ick when i first started and lost all but two fish. The guppies didn't like the treatment with blue in it. I used coppersafe after that and it was alright. I used some sea salt and raised the temp. Take a deep breath and relax. TRy to look on the bright side. If you lose fish, think of other species you've always wanted to try!

I've got a fever... and the only prescription... is more cowbell!

You know, Pete, there's a lot of reason to believe that ich is not present in all tanks, because it can only live for a short time without a host. If a tank without ich doesn't get any new fish or plants, then it shouldn't get ich again regardless of what happens to the inhabitants.

Ick is not a reason to do a 100% water change. If you are fighting say Camallanus worms, then a 100% water change and NEW gravel is often in order. Seeings the camallanus worms live in the gravel, if you remove 100% of the water and gravel, you remove a vast majority of the parasite. The need to medicate fish is then made better, as you have removed most of the intermediate stage worms.
However, Ick is found present in any and all aquariums, healthy or not. Fish develop ick because of faltering slime coats in time of stress (often when we bring them home), or due to a previous infection. Removing all the water wont really do didly squat as the ICH parasite lives in the gravel. The best thing to do is repeat gravel vacs, 3-4 days apart, 3-4 vacs in a row, and only then if you are armed with a large bottle of Cycle and a basketful of hope. The Majority of the Nitrobacter in our aquariums (over 80%) lives in the gravel. This is why cleaning our filters doesnt really need to be done with tank water, and the nitrobacter colonies in the gravel itself will quickly reproduce to make up for any loss of the nitrobacter in the filter media. (of course avoiding however rinsing bioballs, lava rock, ehfisubstrat etc in chlorinated or extreme temperatures as this is the real place in our filters that nitrobacter lives).
When I experience a bout of Ick, the first thing I do is a 50% water change with a good hearty gravel vac. I then make sure the water is at 80 degrees or slightly above, and dose with Kent Marine RX-P. I use this product because it does not harm fry, invertebrates, or scaleless fish, and it doesnt require removal of carbon or excessive water changes. You dose, skip a day, dose , skip a day for a full course of 14 days. I have yet to see ich remain after 3 doses, let alone the full 7.
When I moved I preserved the bacteria in my filters and in the gravel as well as best I could. My tank experienced a mini cycle lasting 5 days, after which parameters returned to normal. The filter, fish, and gravel was out of the tank for approximately 9 hours.


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Thats interesting how you went through the same moving process as myself (as I can understand from your post), yet had problems with water quality following setup.

I still beg to differ that 100% water change, including filter water or not, does not damage bacteria.. of course, new water is alsways dechlorinated, protecting the bacteria colonies. So in theory, even if the filters were transported in fresh dechlorinated water there still wouldn't be a problem

x

So... the important bit from what you've said in your house move example is "kept filters submerged during move". Yes... you understand, obviously, that no water = no bacteria. I didn't say the bacteria lived in the water at any point, though reading my post, the ambiguity of my suggestion does lend itself to that implication. I think my end point was pretty straight forward though... and yet reading the following posts, the point seems to be in contention. Let me clarify: Doing a 100% water change during a treatment is a BAD (VERY BAD) idea. Doing a 100% water change at ANY time is a bad idea. Yes, there are times it needs to be done.. but treating for ick is hardly one of these.

You will also note that in the same paragraph, I suggested pH and temperatures would be of large concern.. not to mention water hardness with some fish species. I'm sorry that i saw a comment that i thought needed to be quenched before someone implemented it, and didn't think i needed to write a detailed explaination of why... i'll know better next time.

Given that we take so much care in our aquariums to establish these bacteria, and they obviously self regulate under the right conditions... should some thought perhaps be given to the implications of a 100% water change on remaining colonies? I certainly think so. If the tank parameters effect the fish, and the plants, then why on earth would you think they don’t effect the bacteria? As with so many organisms, they function as a colony. So even if you don't destroy all of the colony, you will efect it's operation. Which will effect the fish, and obviously what they contribute to the cycle. This is how natural stable systems work. If you move away from the conditions under which the stability was attained, you run a very high risk of entering a 'run-away' state.

I can back this opinion up with a personal example: I did a similar house move, where my Oscar tank was emptied, but the bacteria maintained in the Fluval by keeping it full of water from the old tank setup, and a tub full of submerged gravel in original tank water. When my tank was re-established that same day, it still took 3 weeks for the parameters to stabilise and be at there usual levels. And that was with my fat hungry messy ammonia generating Oscars and a Moorii. No water = no bacteria. New water = unhappy existing bacterial colony.

Bacteria does not live in the water, it colonizes on solid surfaces e.g: fliter media and tank decor.

A 100% water change would not introduce a cycle, providing the filter was not messed with.

Ammonia is the product of fish respiration, waste and leftover food.. so as long as you have fish in the tank, there is your ammonia source.

For example, when I moved house, all my tanks had 100% new water on setup. There were no cycles, mini or otherwise, in the days and weeks following the move. The filters were left alone during the move - kept immersed in water, but thats all.

As Hcelizondo says, the importance is matching the water chemistry i.e: PH, temperature etc. This is where shock comes from if a large amount of water is replaced with new different water.

x

Well. I am very sad about losing three clown loaches today. A friend of mine was here tonight and making fun of the way they were suffering swimming upside down and I just had to ask him to not let their dying be entertainment for him, it really bothered me!

Anyways. A week ago my Loaches got Ick. From what, maybe a water change the previous day was done using wrong temp water.

I went to my LFS and he sold me 'Quick Cure' saying he used it on his loaches all the time at full strength.

Going against the LFS advice I went with half dose medication. Went for three days, did a 25 water change, anf went for three more. Nothing in my tank has changed, ALl the CL's have Ick, while other tankmates seem fine.

I called LFS and told him what I was doing. HE again told me to start doing the full dose of the medicine and raise the temp to 82-84. So I did. ANd 8 hours later I have lost three loaches.

Did this Full Dose kill my pets? But the real question is WHAT SHOULD I DO? EXACTLY... PLEASE...

I really dont know if fishkeeping is for me if I am not skilled enough to give them a good life. I have had a tank now for 4 years and have always loved it, but now I am uncertain of my skills. Its just so sad I killed these guys!

HELP ME CURE ICK... PLEASE...

I completely agree with Malaikah, I know from some people that treats ick only with salt and heat, if you're fish are salt sensitive just increase the temp, and also is a good idea to add some charcoal to remove any medications left in the tank.

Jester a 100% water change won't kill your bacteria, it doesn't live in the water, in fact there is nothing better that a tank with 100% of clean water, the risk of doing a 100% water change resides inthe fact to match the exact water parameters that you had (temp,ph, Gh, Kh), there are people with goldfish that uses to do 80-90% water changes for their fishes.

Good luck and let us know what happens

There are two routes you can go, one is killing the protozoa with meds, and the other is killing it with heat.

Maybe you need a good water change and some carbon in the filter to clean all the previous out so you can start again.

For the heat treatment the temperature needs to be gradually raised to above 86F or 87F for about a week.

Meds with formaldehyde can be used with loaches (I believe).

Even if you use meds I would recommend raising the temp gradually to around 86F anyway. Remember to give that water surface some extra agitation!

Read through this [link=Skeptical Aquarist]http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml" style="COLOR: #BA55D3[/link] article to understand fully the life cycle of the Ick parasite to help you figure how it is eliminated from your water.

Good luck!

x

Copper safe's only active ingredient is copper salts, and neither copper nor salt is good for scaleless fish.
I still think you should try Kent Marine RX-P, it is quite possibly the best ich treatment out there.


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Don't do a 100% water change, ever, please. You'll destroy any remaining good bacterial colonies, and if you don't match the pH and temp exactly, you introduce a whole new range of problems in your fish due to shock. Bad idea. Never do more than a 50% water change during a treatment.

I suggest for a scale less fish you try something like tri-sulphur or copper safe. I've used tri-sulphur before and it was successful, without loss of fish. Keep to 25% 2 day water changes, as the treatments will destroy your cycle and will lead to increases of ammonia and Nitrates. It's a good idea to do extra water testing during any treatment. Increase the temp as suggest, this will help speed up the ich life cycle, and get it off the fish, which is when the meds work best. Treat until there are no signs of ich left, and then for about a week afterwards. I've found in the past switching meds can help if the ich seems to be hanging around. But as already said, for scale less fish, your choices of meds are limited to those NOT containing copper... so nothing with malachite green or methyl blue in it, of any concentration.

Well, my betta fry got ick, and it is one heck of a battle, so be prepared to lose some fish. Clown Loaches are, apparently, very susceptible to internal parasites, so this is not unusual. To cure it, just get a proprietary treatment and keep treating NON STOP until there is not one single itty-bitty spot on them. Also, do a 100% water change to get rid of the parasites in the water. Hope this helps! Jaylene, signing off.

Any medication that contains dyes (methylene blue, gentian violet, malachite green) or heavy metals (copper in particular) are harmful to scaleless fish like loaches.
There is one product I would use instead: Kent Marine RX-P I have found it to work excellent, it doesnt hurt scaleless fish or fry, it doesnt harm your bacteria in your tank, and is safe for more invertebrates and shrimp.
It is more expensive, but worth it for tough cases or sensitive fish.
Follow the directions exactly and your ick will be gone. I have used this product on very sensitive fish (angelicus botia, hatchetfish, fry) and have had no losses.
I know there is also a product by Kordon for scaleless fish.
I hope this helps you some.


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i've heard that clown loaches are scaleless (could be wrong here...) and if they are it's harmful to use ick cures at full dose. perhaps 'quick cure' is safe for use at full strength - i dont know cause i've never used it - but i think you were right using it at half strength at first. depending on the temp you had your tank at, after 3 days perhaps the ick cycle hadn't ended yet... it's only susceptable to medication in the 'free swimming' stage so the chemical isn't going to kill it all while you still see the white spots on the fish.... hopefully this helps if there's ever a 'next time'. and sorry for your loss, but don't give up!