FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Many hobbyists do not realize that there are several species of the ich parasite...

I truly believe, because the parasites have been around for ages, that some are becoming immune to our meds.

The parasite burrows into the skin of the fish causing the damage. You can imagine several hundred damaging the trops skin and introducing certain fungus attacks.

I believe, in your case, not all the parasites were encouraged to leave the fish and remained embedded in the skin of the trops for awhile before finally emerging to do their thing.

Now, you mentioned twice weekly partial water changes because of the bio load of your tank. That's ok if the new water is exactly the temp as the tank.

I know you said that the new water was the exact same temp but be reminded that the usual cause for an ich attack is new water that is perhaps two or three degrees below that of the tank.

I would strongly suggest, since the ich parasite has a definite dislike for warm water, that you keep your tank temp, as I do, at a constant 80-82 degrees.

Never trust one thermometer to be accurate. A second thermometer should be employed to give you an average.

The current fungus will be difficult to modify and you may lose more fish in the short term. If you discover Maracyn is doing its job, then by all means continue usage.

Double the first dose of the med to give it a good head start.

Accept this disease as a challenge and be determined that you're the boss, not the fungus. With that attitude you're bound to be the winner.

--garyroland.

--Vero Beach, Florida.









Last edited by garyroland at 22-Oct-2004 13:02

PS: Gary definitely KNOWS HIS STUFF!! He helped me through my overfeeding problems and helped me with my clown loach death epidemic. Listen to the man!!:%)

First of all, hugs, hugs and more hugs dear. I am sooo sorry you are going through this. I have been there, and I feel for ya.

Has anyone mentioned maybe too much water change? I think you said twice a week while not treating. To me that seems a bit extreme unless you are massively overfeeding the tank. I found, early on, that overfeeding caused a lot of health problems in my tank. Now I feed once a day. It wasnt until someone told me that a fish stomach is the size of its eye that I finally realized just how much overfeeding I had done!!

Again, I think twice a week too much. My tank is fully stocked, perhaps overstocked, but I do about 30% to 40% water change and gravel vac. every two to two and a half weeks and my fish are doing wonderfully now.

Hang in there sweetie. It WILL get better

Theresa, I hope things are getting better for your tank. I've been at this for a little while and have yet to get ick in my tanks. Some things I do that may help. I do 20% water changes once a week, I match the temp of the clean water I add to the tank water. I add an ick medication every water change as a preventative. If I add a new fish I also add the same ick medication. I keep my tanks set at 80F. When I clean a tank I only clean part of it this week and another part next week. I don't do anything to my filters the same day as a water change. I'm sure you know all this, but it doesn't hurt to go over it from time to time. I'm sure this list can be added to and changed as to what fish are kept.

Well the only thing I can say is good luck, glady you didn't have any more losses.
Hector

When treating, the dosing of NIC is a must to replace the good bacteria that are killed...

--garyroland.

Day three of treatment. The tank is cloud from the meds, understandable but it still depresses me. I can still see the fungus near the firemouth's pectoral fin; it also looks like he's getting another spot on his mouth. I realize it's a five-day treatment but I'm feeling very badly about this tank and the fish

~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

Partial water changes can be weekly or bi-weekly depending on the bio load and size of the tank and, of course, after testing for water parameters. In large tanks 55
gallons and up, partial water changes, perhaps 35%, can be done once per month if the tanks contain normal bio loads and good filtration.

Temp changes

In the wild where fish are in massive bodies of water, very little, if any, temp change takes place after a rain storm. If the water temp should change because of atmospheric weather changes, the change is very gradual.

In drastic situations the trops will find deeper water until the upper temp stabilizes.

Fungus attacks

The ich parasite, as I explained before, burrows into the skin of the fish. If treatment is not provided and the parasite multiplies, the damage becomes extensive after they leave the fish and fungus sets in.

Some fish with a good immune system will resist the fungus infection and do fine while others die of the fungus. There seems to be a larger percentage of ich-produced fungus in tanks that are not well maintained and contain trops that are not nutritionally strong.

Fungus seems to be in every tank as a natural component. You'll notice that a dead trop left in the tank will soon be covered with fungus, probably nature's way of disposing with unneeded waste.

--garyroland.

Last edited by garyroland at 25-Oct-2004 12:10

No more deaths since I the krib and angel. I'm on day two of treatment with Maracyn. The remaining fish are active and look good except the firemouth. He has absolutely gorgeous color but there is a small pink patch near one of his pectoral fins, similar to the patches he had when this first started. I've done everything possible so now it's just wait and see (and hope).

I really do appreciate all the help and information.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

How do explain the temp. drop after a rainstorm in the wild? In my experience when I do a water change with my CA/SA cichlids and use water that is a couple of degrees cooler they spawn almost every time. As long as they don't already have a brood at the time. I agree that ich is caused by temp. changes but I think they have to be very extreme temp. changes not just a couple of degrees. I don't think that this is the root cause of your problems Theresa. I think one of the fish had a dormant illness, like that of mono or chickenpocks, which suddenly manifested itself. It may not even be something that you can treat with meds. Although I don't recommend you stop using them. It may just be a virus which allowed the fish to be susceptible to the ich and fungis. If it is a virus it's something you have no control over. It's probably not even anything you could've prevented. These things just happen sometimes. HTH clear your conscience.

Last edited by lil-fishy at 24-Oct-2004 00:19

Gary, would you recommend weekly 10-15% water changes or bi-weekly 20% changes. Is the shock from the difference in water parameters associated with weekly changes greater for the fish than any potential build-up of wastes in the water over 2 weeks. Or is it the other way around. Talking to to other hobbyists, I've gotten a wide variety of responses and I never know what to do.

I agree with Gary. For the most part fish like a water change, with some it actually induces spawning.

I have one question though. I know what can bring on ich, where would the fungus have come from?

~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

Of course your figures are accurate...

But, think about it.

After a water change, you claim, the trops contracted ich.

It's my contention that the new water, a few degrees cooler, strikes some, or one, of the fish in the tank causing an immediate temp shock and a resistance reduction.

It doesn't take much to shock a trop's metabolism especially when it happens suddenly.

It's more than coincidence that trops are contracting ich after partial water changes.

--garyroland.


Last edited by garyroland at 22-Oct-2004 21:11

I am having a similar problem with ich in 2 tanks. I did 10-15% water changes on 2 of my tanks on tuesday, and sure enough, I got ich in both tanks. I'm currently treating both tanks, but I did lose my BN today. Other fish seem to be clearing. I'm thinking weekly water changes are NOT the way to go. I've had ich one other time, and it followed a water change. I temp. match my water with a calibrated thermometer and of course remove chlorine and add stress reducer. But we are never sure of water quality from our municipalities. I don't think temp is much of an issue anyways. If you do a 10% water change in a 50 gallon tank at 80 degrees with water a full 4 degrees cooler, the resultant final temp would be 79.6 degrees, only 0.4 degrees change! 5gal76) + 45gal80) =50x x = 79.6. Its a simple matter of volume. I think the real stress either comes from just the over-all action of the water change with all of the commotion, or some other water quality issue from our tap that our treatments don't remove. I think I'm going to bi-weekly changes. If our tank is properly balanced and cycled, it shouldn't matter.

Last edited by fishfool35 at 22-Oct-2004 19:13

This all started about two weeks ago with an outbreak of ich and some sort of fungus (http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/48378.html). I mostly noticed the ich on the black phantoms and my BN. My firemouth and moonlight gourami originally had the fungus, later a couple of the black phantoms as well.

I finished treatment but I'm still losing fish and can't figure out why

-water params fine
-tank temp 77°, brought back down very slowly from 86°
-no new fish, plants, ferts, food, etc
-no fresh veg or live foods since the outbreak
-last water change 25% 10/19, from outbreak until then I was doing daily changes
-new filter cartridge when I finished treatment
-no changes to tap water and I treat the water with AquaPlus

During treatment I lost a festivum, Bolivian ram, pearl gourami, and the moonlight gourami. Over the past four days or so more tetras have died. Last night I noticed one of my kribs wasn't showing her usual good color, and now she's hanging almost vertically near the filter intake. I have a feeling by morning she'll be gone Otherwise I have another krib, the firemouth, an angel who doesn't seem to be doing well either, the BN, six cories, two keyholes, four or five black phantoms, and a Bolivian ram; these fish are currently active and eating.

Any ideas what's going on with this tank? I'm so upset and have no clue what's wrong or what I should be doing...I really hope someone can help. If I left anything out feel free to ask.

Thanks



Last edited by Theresa_M at 26-Oct-2004 09:55

~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

Thanks Gary, it's good to have some idea what's going on, rather than feeling clueless and helpless.

I noticed another tetra has a pink spot on near its mouth. I'm definitely picking up some Maracyn today.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

You're running a true fungus in your tank...

Saprolegnia, a true fungus, can be treated with Maracyn with success if the treatment lasts for at least ten days to two weeks.

The New Improved Cycle must be dosed to replace the good bacteria that the antibiotic in Maracyn will kill.

Be advised that Maracyn is dosed until all trops show a complete remission.

Don't be depressed about fungus invasions after bouts with ich. It happens all the time to many hobbyists.

In fact, if you were to let the ich parasite go untreated, the fish would be completely covered with fungus because of the damage the ich parasite causes.

Trops die from the fungus, not ich.

--garyroland.



Last edited by garyroland at 22-Oct-2004 10:54

When you add your clean water to your tank do you match the temp to your tank water?

Always do, even when the temp was higher for treatment.

I'm lost on this as well but I appreciate the replies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean

When you add your clean water to your tank do you match the temp to your tank water? I just can't see what the cause of this is!

How old is your tank?

Just over eight months old.

Why all the water changes?

Normally I do twice weekly since I tend to overstock. During treatment I switch to daily, or at least every other day.

What do you use to do your changes?

If you mean equipment I have a bucket and pitcher that are used only for the tanks. I treat the water with AquaPlus.

What foods do you feed and how much?

Large variety of foods...flake, pellets, wafers, frozen. Same foods I feed the fish in my other tanks and I haven't tried anything new in quite some time. I break up a couple of wafers for my bottom feeders, the other fish get however much they can eat in a few minutes.

What tests do you use?

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.

Is that PH the reading you Always get or does it go up and down?

It's a non-changing 7.6

Do you see alot of nipping?

Occasionally amongst the male black phantoms. The firemouth is a chaser but I've never seen him nip.

Please tell us all the medicine you have added and how much.

I used lower doses because of my cories...Anti-Fungus, five drops per gallon; Quick Cure, one drop per two gallons.

I read that this could still be ich, that it often resides in the fish's gills where it's unseen and the damage is often irreversible. This would explain the krib & angel surface-gasping...does that sound right or am I grasping for an answer?

~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is water at the bottom of the ocean