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hello. I have a blue dwarf gourami who has had ich for two weeks. I have been treating with quick cure for two weeks, however i did not take out the carbon in the filter until four days ago.Oooops! This, im assuming is why he gets new spots daily. But the spots seem smaller and are not as bright white as ich usually is. I've have not seen THAT much ich though because im new to all this. Also there are lots of them all over him, especially his side fins. He was doing a lot of rubbing on gravel and plants two weeks ago when the first spots appeared, but now he's not. The spots don't seem to bother him anymore. Could it be velvet? All the other fish are fine: 3 zebra danios and two platies.
My "stats"
10 gallon tank with top fin 10 filter
temp: 79/80 (raised slowly to kill ich)
ph= 8
ammonia= 0
nitrite= .2 (TWO TENTHS not two)
NITRATE= 5
there is a tablespoon of salt in water

thanks
littletank
HAPPY MARDI GRAS!!!

No, that would not be velvet. It could be more ich spots, but it could also be fungus or infection in the areas that were bitten.

Does Quick Cure specify its ingredients? If it is only Copper Salts, then lets put some Pimafix in there to combat any potential fungus or bacteria, which is common with ich bites. Many ich meds consider this and already have something in there to counter it. Don't run out and get Pimafix just yet, post the ingredients.

Velvet (Oodinium), appears like a gold dusting. You know what ich looks like, here are some pics of velvet.

http://www.2cah.com/pandora/Disease.html#Velvet

Continue with your treatment. Also, you may find this helpful. Whatever you do, don't switch treatments just yet.

Ich Lifecycle

http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com/profiles/disease/freshwater/ich.html

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It is very important to keep the temp stable, especially during water changes. Take note of the temp before the water change and make sure you do not alter it more than 1-1.5F in the process of changing water. It only takes a drop of 3 or 4F or more to bring on temp shock, which ultimately allows ich to set in. An abrupt rise can cause a low level columnaris infection to bloom.

I would not raise temp any further.

EDIT: I have found something which indicates Quick Cure contains Malachite Green and Formalin. No need to add Pimafix as the malachite is mildly antibacterial. Hopefully, you are dosing at half strength if you have scaleless fish or tetras as they are senstive to these meds.

Its really not a good idea to raise temp with formalin. The med does the work so there is no need to speed up the process with heat. Formalin is a gas and it robs the water of o2. Each degree warmer a tank is, the less oxygen there is too. Combine the two and the fish end up struggling to breath. This is why it is not recommended to turn up heat with formalin.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 07-Feb-2005 22:52

Last edited by Cory_Di at 12-Feb-2005 21:56

thanks for your reply. Okay, i read the article and looked at the pics. Both of which were helpful. Quick Cure has formalin and malachite green. I have also been adding a teaspoon of Melafix for the ich bites. What's the difference between melafix and pimafix? Should i continue with the melafix?

After looking at the pictures, i'm wondering if Bahama (blue dwarf gourami) has both ich and velvet. I'm certain some of the spots are ich. But the others are really small and aren't so raised. It's hard ot tell if it's "gold" because his skin shines differently in different light, and the spots can only be seen from some angles. I don't know. Could this be? If so do the meds i'm using treat both? I know it's lots of questions, but i really want to get my blue guy better.
thanks again,
littletank

Last edited by littletank at 07-Feb-2005 23:09

The med you have is effective for both

You can continue with Melafix. Pimafix is a little better, imho.

Let us know how they do

thanks again. i will slowly lower the temp back to 75 over the week. my gourami is staying at the surface alot. it's probably from the lack of oxygen in the water.
littletank

That will do it, alright. I used rid ich once, with a guppy that I suspected had parasites (not ich). He, and a white cloud in the hospital tank, were both gasping at doses less than full strength with the temp at 75F. It is best to drop in more airstones if you see this. Pumps are cheap at around 5-6 bucks and you really can't have enough of them around. Just be sure to use a "check-valve" with any airpump so that if power goes out, you don't end up with a back siphon pulling water out of your tank. If you don't have a check valve, simply make sure the air pump is above the water line completely. I like to make sure it is up by several inches or more.

He is gasping for air more and more. I have lowered the temp to 77. I noticed a new "cloud" on one of his tentacle things. It's not looking good for "Bahama". I don't understand air pumps. I've seen something called airstones, that i wanted to buy, but i didn't know what i was supposed to attach to it for the air to come out. I'm assuming a tube of some sort, but there were no air pumps all in a pack together, like a "kit", and i could not find the fish guy to help me, so i never got one. I suppose i should.
Also, i never see Bahama eat, but this has been the case with him since i got him. Sometimes he eats Brine shrimp, but he NEVER goes after the food like the other fish. It's like if it comes his way he'll eat it, but otherwise, he's not interested. I'm hoping he eats the left overs when i'm not looking, maybe.
littletank

Well, gourami's will take air from the surface, but it would help if you could increase o2 in the water.

Did you use at full strength, the Rid Ich Plus?

You can provide some relief with a partial water change, even 10 or 15%. This will dilute it some. It is critical that the overall temp not change in the process.

Also, lower the heat one more degree. That cloud on his tentacle, is probably body fungus, which is a bacterial infection called columnaris. If you have some, add Pimafix. If you have Melafix use that, but Pimafix is stronger so if you have an opportunity pick some up and always keep it on hand.

I can explain the airpump

I don't usually see them in kits so here's what you need to buy and don't hesitate to ask a sales associate:

- Airpump for the size tank you have
- Airline of any kind (more is better).
- Package of airstones
- Check Valve (ask for help if you can't find it)

The check valve prevents a back siphon should power be cut, so it is important.

Cut two pieces of hose with one being about 18 inches, the other maybe a little longer. Attach the airstone to one end of the 18 inch hose and the check valve in the other end. Make sure that it is pointed towards the airstone, if there is an arrow. If it is a clear check valve, you may notice a more pointed end and this should face the airstone. However, don't fret because if you get it on backwards, you simply won't get any air coming out of the airstone when you plug it in . Simply disconnect and turn it around and you should see good flow.

Take your second piece of hose and use it to connect the check valve to the pump. Plug it in and you are ready to go.

Now, note that the fish may have an ich infestation in his gills and may have even developed a columnaris infection in there. It is very risky and unfortunatly, more fish die from ich in the gills than on the body. Watch him closely and remove promply if he should die, otherwise ammonia will go up.

I often quarantine a fish who appears gravely ill enough to die so he doesn't die in the tank. But I have a variety of small tanks (2.2 and 5.5 gal) at my disposal. You transfer the fish with as much of his own tank water as possible without depleting more than 25-30%. This makes it a less shocky transfer. More conditioned water can be added gradually over an hour or few hours if it is alot to ease the transition. Temp is always a big issue. It needs to be very steady throughout the process.

The airpump you buy can always be used in the future for such processes. You can even use a rubbermaid bin, provided it has not ever had chemicals, soaps or other stuff in it. Such receptacles need to be siphoned almost daily of uneaten food as there is no filter to remove toxins. Kept in a warm room, even a heater can be avoided. I would suggest nothing under 5 gal and always use some type of lid. Fake plants make them feel more at ease and relieve some of the stress.

Hope this helps

Diane

the pandora disease website page that you gave me was EXTREMELY helpful! thanks so much. everyone who visits the "HOSPITAL forum" should get a copy of that.
thanks again,
littletank

They do have some good pics there, but I think some may be mislabeled. Without firm microscopy, many things cannot be determined one way or another. Some things like ich are easier to identify visually.

thanks for the info about air pumps and everthing else. he's hanging in there. i got an air pump and quit using quick cure. i used jungle tabs for ich and fungus last night. im about to do a small water change so i can do one more dose of the the jungle tabs--the one's that fizz. i hope he makes it!

he's still not eating though and the ich spots just won't fall off. it's almost as if they know that there's meds in the water that will kill them so they're staying on him--just making up stuff to make myself feel better. Do you think that because he has not been eating, the ich spots aren't getting enough "nutrition from their host"? Im just wondering this because i read that they stay on the host until they are "full".

When should the columnaris disappear?
I feel so bad for him. he looks miserable. thanks again for all of your help. i really appreciate it!
littletank

Read the information on the Ich lifecycle I provided above. Like I said, the ich meds do not treat ich on the fish. The meds are only going to work when the ich parasite is in a specific stage - the freeswimming stage. Those spots will fall off naturally based on temp and time. Then, they will develop and hatch into hundreds more like themselves looking again for a host. This is the only time the ich med works against them. Follow the instructions on the packet to the letter. When the spots disappear, the med must be in the water in the days that follow to catch the freeswimmers.

ARe you using Pimafix for the fungus? If not, try that.

What is in the Jungle Fizz tabs? Is there acriflavine? If so, that will help treat the columnaris. Is that part getting worse or better? What temp are you at? Higher temps will make the columnaris worst. But NEVER drop the temp abruptly or you will stress the fish and he will get more ich. Drop it slowly 1-1.5 F daily until you get to 76F. At 77F, columnaris spreads faster.

I've read the life cycle of ich, so i know how important it is to treat once the spots have fallen off. On the packages of both the jungle ich tab and the jungle fungus tab it says that one treatment/tab should be enough, but that you can do two just in case, but only after a 20% water change. So, i did a vaccuum gravel this morn with a 25% water change then added another ich tab and another fungus tab. The first treatments were done on Friday night.

Oh, also some good news: the columnaris is gone as of this morning too!! Bahama is starting to swim around a bit. He unclamps his fins and swims in front of me as if to show me he's getting better, then he clamps them back again for a while. So things are definitely getting better, except there was a slight ammonia reading. I think that all these meds have been slowly killing off some of my good biobugs. I have been treating with different stuff for a month now. I stopped the quick cure once i got the jungle tabs, so i can definitely say that two weeks of QUICK CURE SLOWLY KILLS good biobugs. It does nothing more than that! These jungle tabs have done a much better job! Some of the members on applesnail.net reccommended them to me.

oh, and the temp is at 77. is that okay?
littletank

ps: this morning my platy mommy had babies!!!!/:'

Take the temp to 76. As I mentioned, 77F is the temp at which it is most virulent.

Sounds like you're on track .

You may want to dose the tank with a product like Prime - 2 drops per gallon to help bring the ammonia and any nitrite in check. It could cause a false positive ammonia reading tho, so don't be alarmed.

Once you remove the med, dose it with some bacterial starter like Cycle. Make sure you do a partial water change first and use activated carbon overnight first.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 13-Feb-2005 21:05

Last edited by Cory_Di at 13-Feb-2005 21:06