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Keep it focused on the question at hand.

Empty chairs at empty tables, the room silent, forlorn.

I am closing this thread. Zebra has finished with her discussion.

___________________________________________

If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished.

"And Cup, please don't get involved with this. I know you had a thing with me over the mudskipper thred, but seriously. I don't see how debating how DAVE aquired his 800 cages helpes the poster in any way."

But seriously what? Not seeing eye to eye with things is not exactly my idea of "having a thing" with you. I am only posting my opinion, which, I believe, I am entitled to . Furthermore, I was not debating, I was just answering your question. Since when was responding to a posted inquiry "debating?"

Awww

I've never had a zebra finch survive 2 froze to death on a cool evening (not cold, just cool) with the mannikin finches looking on unphased, and another two were Celine Dion'd to deat at the end of Titanic. Apparently high notes don't agree with them.

Anyway, I'm not a big zebra finch fan very bad luck with them

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

!!! UPDATE. i went 2 the pet shop and had a look at all the birds- and i have decided that im not going 2 get a bird... my parents said that i shouldnt cause i have too many animals right now as it is. it was kinda funny- cause i was gonna get 2 zebra finch-- and i had food, the cage and accessories all in my arms, and then i talked myself out of it . i really appreciate all of the replies though-- and i dont know why we are all arguing over the wing clipping thing-- every one has their own opinion and i can see both sides of them. Thanks again!!!
-kristin

~!!I lOve LiFe!!~

I don't clip claws, but i do understand that the birds that I have are cage or hand raised and unnatural colours, they are not afraid of dogs or cats and they are naturally (as prey animals) panicaholics. I know that all it takes is one good shock, and they are going to instictively fly away, without caring about the months and months of training i put in. Sure, they might come back because of that training, but that is rather after the fact.

my choices are as follows:
*keep them indoors in a safe environment (no teflon, no ceiling fans, no open toilets etc)
*use a featherteather (which aren't that suitable for smaller parrots, although i did try)
*keep them caged
*clip their wings


IMO clippings wings is something that should be done if you plan on taking a handraised or cageraised bird out of doors. It becomes especially important if the bird has overly identified with humans or predatory animals.

I find it irresponsible for a bird owner to disregard the natural instinct of their pet. I know it sounds harsh, but i really do. So many people now are forgetting the basics of the animals they are dealing with, and often they do it because they feel that the animal identifies with humans. I have no problem with animals identiying with humans, but this offers a false sense of security for most people. When push comes to shove, a dog will bite, a horse will bolt, and a bird will fly up and away from the percieved danger.

No amount of training can guarantee that you have wiped the animal's prey instincts. You can mask them to a good degree with a lot of trust training, but you can never say they are gone.

If you want to take your bird outside without clipping its wings, fine, it is your animal and you are in charge of its welfare. Just be aware that if/when it does get spooked and take off, that you are still responsible for that, and for whatever happens to that bird for the rest of its life.

We cannot blame our pets for following their instincts.

[EDIT: and those sandpaper perch covers are best avoided. the claw rarely come in contact with the actual sandpaper and the feet often end up very ulcerated. Stick with unevenly shaped natural branches and if you must, put a small perch sandpaper sheath on the underside of a large perch, so the sole of the claw is not constantly being abraided. ]


Last edited by Callatya at 25-May-2005 06:06

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Now, for dave...
How could you physically keep 800 birds? Do you work in a pet store? Or perhaps in a zoo. Obviously, you don't have 800 cages scattered around your house, do you?

Keeping 800 birds over 13 years isn't much at all. Right now I only have 10 breeding cabinets and 1 aviary. This season alone I've bred 67 zebra finches, 15 bengalese finches, 14 budgies, 8 diamond doves and 3 canaries and a few pigeons.
And yes, I have worked in a pet store and a zoo(for a couple of weeks), but I didn't include those.

Second of all, parakeets are not domesticated. Regardless if they are bred by humans or not, the only true domesticated animals are those that have been "modified" by human beings through selective breeding. True, parakeets have been bred in different colors, but this has nothing to do with their mentality.
Take dogs and cows for example. Cows have been bred to have certain fat and mineral content in their milk. This is healthier and tastes better to us. Dogs have been trained over 1000s of years to hunt and follow commands. No bird has undergone that kind of treatment, except possibly birds of prey which are used to hunt. But he isn't asking about birds of prey is he?

Have you ever kept wild caught budgies and domesticated budgies? They look and behave like totally different species.
All the colour mutations just go to show how long they have been in captivity and how well they have adapted. Colour mutations and the size of the bird are exactly the same as your example of how cattle have been bred for certain physical traits.
Plenty of bird species have been bred for 100's of years, bengalese finches, pigeons, ring neck doves, japanese quail just to name a few.

You also forget that many parakeets are wild caught, especially those sold in common pet stores. Unless zebra is buying from a breeder, I'd say the chances of her getting a "domestic" parakeet is quite slim

If you're talking about budgies, you will have a very difficult time finding wild caught birds out of Australia.

Kristens thread seems to be ruined now.

I wasn't actually arguing as such. I was simply presenting my own experiences and stating that in principle, I believe wing clipping to be unnecessary on the basis of that experience. However, if one reads my post carefully, I also say that birds, just like fish, need dedication and patience. That is something I think no-one here would argue against. However, having exercised that patience and dedication, I reached the point where I could summon Peter to fly across the room, out of the cage, onto my outstretched arm. That takes a fair amount of time to achieve, and I admit that some people won't have the time to indulge in the more advanced training antics that I engaged in with Peter. However, as a basic principle, taking a sharp instrument to a small bird is something I would only contemplate from the standpoint of veterinary necessity.

Taking a tangential diversion for a moment, let us consider claw clipping. Now, in the wild, a budgie's claws wear down with constant use on tree branches, walking on hard ground hunting seeds for food etc. In the domestic environment, some kind of substitute is needed. Which is why I used a mixture of hardwood perches and plastic ones with special abrasive covers fitted (they're little more than tubes of sandpaper). Using these, I didn't need to take Peter to the vet to have his claws trimmed ever. His claws wore down naturally on the perches provided.

Likewise, wing clipping I consider unnecessary, because I contend, as I contend with fishkeeping, that if one is not prepared to exercise due patience and dedication, then one should not keep birds. Most of us here lament the infamous '3 Oscars in a 10G' type tales that turn up in the forums, and rightly so. Similarly, birds have their requirements, and the onus is on the human to meet them. Wing clipping, like tail docking of dogs in the past, is a mutilation whose sole justification is human indolence. Far better to spend the time training a bird to live in a cage, but with the ability to pop out of the open door and take a nosey peek at what we're doing from a shoulder vantage point. Plus, I'd take Peter around the house and let him explore other rooms, which he enjoyed - all those interesting new sights to exercise his curiosity upon. A creature as intelligent as a budgerigar deserves to be treated as a fully integrated member of the family, and will reward said patience and dedication immensely if duly integrated as I have described above. My only disappointment was that he showed no interest in the aquarium: I'd have loved to have taken some shots of him peering at the glass watching the fish, with a puzzled expression on his face as if to say "Wonder if they'll come out and play with me?"

Also, if one reads my above post carefully, I avoided taking an overly militant polemical stance, because that has already been done by at least one other poster, with a concomitant raising of hackles on the part of some readers. While there are times when a polemical stance is justified, this time I opted against doing so, deeming it to be counter-productive. Better to give an example of happy coexistence (as I did) and persuade people to follow said example with a smile on their faces.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Given Dave's dedication to all things critter, 800 isnt that much of a stretch IMO. Especially since finches feature in there pretty prominantly.

The outer two feathers thing. If you cut all feathers off both wings, the birds will still beat the wings madly and because the airflow ovr them is different, they beat in a slightly diffrent pattern.

It ends up in little bloody-ended chicken wings because the beat really hard and there is nothing to protect the tips of the wings from damage.

Leaving two primary flight feathers in place keeps the wing in a more natural position if they attempt to fly, and it protects the ends of the wings from damage.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

I think the whole wing-clipping issue has been debated enough. There's no point in continuing any further. Plus, if Cali and Dave are such experts in birds, why don't you two share your info with zebra instead of arguing with me. Your all totally forgetting the question at hand, like koi pointed out. Obviously wing clipping is a decision zebra has to make herself. We all feel strongly towards it and us continuing to argue anymore is just a waste of time.

And Cup, please don't get involved with this. I know you had a thing with me over the mudskipper thred, but seriously. I don't see how debating how DAVE aquired his 800 cages helpes the poster in any way.

Zebra, I'd really like to get an update. Did you get the bird? Do you still want a bird? Come on!

Actually, most budgies that I know of in local stores are hobbyist bred.

Domestication means to adapt an organism to be fit for life in contact with humans. If the bird in question is feeding out of one's palm, it's a safe bet that it is "domesticated".

Who are you to speak of mentality? Are you a budgie?

If you ARE insistent on pursing that train of thought, then consider how, in so many of the given examples, birds coexist happily (and carelessly) with humans? This in itself is the essence of domestication.

Finally, he stated that he's kept 800 birds over 13 years, not necessarily all at once; note the past tense.



Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 24-May-2005 18:24

Ok, here's my two pennies worth of bird keeping experience with a budgie.

Peter (as my mother named him) was bought for her as a Mother's Day present because her previous budgie died of old age. Peter was kept in a cage, but was also finger trained, and within a couple of weeks, was brought to the stage where we could leave the cage door open and let him fly around the living room at will. He was hilarious to have around ... he'd fly out of the cage, land on someone 's head, then flutter down onto a shoulder and nosey around and see what we were all doing ... and, he acquired quite a vocabulary during his tenure in my household. He could say "Little Peter", "Happy Bird", "Bad Boy", and best of all, "Squawk" ... the story surrounding this in itself is hilarious! During the latter stages of his finger training, he'd sit on my finger, chattering away making the usual budgie noises, and eventually, I'd reply with "Yeah, chirp twitter bloody tweet ... squawk ...". Then, one day, he was sitting on my finger, chattering away again, and once again I started, "Yeah, chirp twitter bloody tweet ..." and immediatlely, he threw his head back and said "squawk" at me!

I'm sure that if I'd made a tape recording of him, you'd be able to make out attempts to repeat the "chirp twitter bloody tweet" bit as well!

Then, later on in his career, he discovered that the CAPS LOCK key of my old Amiga computer had a red LED built in, that came on and off when the key was pressed. So, what did he do? He fluttered off onto the desk, walked up to the side of the computer, then started tapping the CAPS LOCK key to make the light come on and off!!!

Never underestimate the intelligence of small birds, ESPECIALLY members of the Parrot family. Next to some of my neighbours, this budgie was Einstein

Sadly, Peter is no longer with us, and went to the great aviary in the sky a while back. But, I have a picture of him that speaks a thousand words. Shiny objects were always a favourite attraction, and this page shows him at his inquisitive best with an old wristwatch of mine. Take a look at that picture, and look how expressive his face is ... that is one star turn among pet budgies!

If you're prepared to exercise some patience and train a pet bird, it can be trained to do some amazing things. There are some budgie keepers who keep their budgies in outdoor 'liberty aviaries', and successfully train their budgies to return home after a fly around the neighbourhood. Yes, this IS possible! But, once again, dealing with living creatures requires patience and dedication. The article I wrote a while back entitled "An Aquarium Is Not A TV" applies to other pets too, particularly intelligent ones like budgies, cats and dogs. Train a dog properly, said dog becomes a well-integrated member of the community that only barks when required (i.e., knock at the door) or when chasing a cat out of its back garden. Leave it to drag itself up (as my next door neighbours have obviously done both with their dogs and their self-absorbed teenagers) and you end up with antisocial curs that create a noise nuisance and pose a health hazard to postmen.

If you're prepared to exercise said patience and dedication, clipping a bird's wings becomes unnecessary. Said bird will hang around you and behave in a delightfully comic fashion, providing hours of rewarding entertainment. The only thing you have to remember is that as I discovered, budgie guano and computer keyboards don't mix well


Last edited by Calilasseia at 24-May-2005 16:27

Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

"Never clip a bird's wings, they are very easy to train..."

I have a hard time telling this story, but I will..

I dont like to clip bird's wings and I dont like to keep them caged. I found a parrot on the building terrace that was lost and looked sickly and scared. He was somebody's pet, and couldn't fly eventhough he had fully grown wings.

I brought him home, and we had him for over a year. He was doing quite well, he was prolly quite old too. One day, the bird suddenly decided to take off and we were very happy. At the same time, I was scared he might attempt flying again and hit the fan or something.

I ignored that feeling because the bird couldnt fly that high. Unfortunately, one day, just that happened. He flew, and hit the fan, injured one of his claws and lost the use of it, I guess he broke a bone or something.

I called a vet home to examine him, she massaged his claw, and told us thats all we needed to do. The parrot stopped flying and I didnt think it necessary to clip its wings. But the spirited little bird attempted again, this time, it was injured badly. It hurt its wing, and died of its wounds a few days later.

God knows, I feel so guilty I still have nightmares and have never kept a bird eversince.

Hello all!!! I am thinking about getting a parakeet- but I dont know much about them and i wanna learn as much as possible before i get one. Or I was thinking about getting some of those small finches? but you cant hold those can you? I have had parakeets before but they kept dieing and i had no idea why???? if anyone knows a good website about these birds, i would greatly appreiciate it!! thanks
-kristin

~!!I lOve LiFe!!~

Calla, I've never heard of only clipping one wing, that sounds stupid and barbaric. You are right that it is better to clip both. And I assume she is talking about budgies (or in America, parakeets). Most likely, wild-type, because show birds aren't sold as much and are pretty expensive. Hopefully, the origional poster can come by and clear that up.

BTW, it's interesting that you brought up keeping the outer 2 feathers intact. That's exactly what my local petland did on all of its clipped birds and my uncle said that they had done it wrong.

Now, for dave...
How could you physically keep 800 birds? Do you work in a pet store? Or perhaps in a zoo. Obviously, you don't have 800 cages scattered around your house, do you?

Second of all, parakeets are not domesticated. Regardless if they are bred by humans or not, the only true domesticated animals are those that have been "modified" by human beings through selective breeding. True, parakeets have been bred in different colors, but this has nothing to do with their mentality. Take dogs and cows for example. Cows have been bred to have certain fat and mineral content in their milk. This is healthier and tastes better to us. Dogs have been trained over 1000s of years to hunt and follow commands. No bird has undergone that kind of treatment, except possibly birds of prey which are used to hunt. But he isn't asking about birds of prey is he? You also forget that many parakeets are wild caught, especially those sold in common pet stores. Unless zebra is buying from a breeder, I'd say the chances of her getting a "domestic" parakeet is quite slim.

Last edited by djtj at 24-May-2005 11:23

Dave, where did you get that little bit of info?

DTJT, I've kept around 800 birds over the last 13 years, practical experience is a lot better than reading an article about budgies for around 10 mins.

If a bird can fly away from you, it will. That's the little pain in the butt called natural instincts. You don't see robins hopping onto your hand just waiting to be petted.

Hahaha. You do realise that birds that have been domesticated for 100's of generations are different to wild birds? Still, some species of wild birds will definately approach you (even though it is food motivated).

If you restrain a bird and do not let it fly, then you will be causing more psychological harm than if you just have the wings clipped in the first place. It is a quick, painless procedure which does a world of good and makes the petkeeping experience much easier for both the keeper and the animal.

Yea, cutting a birds wings so it can't use its natural defence to escape a potential predator is a lot less stressful than not handling the bird and letting it approach you.
Painless? I've seen birds that have had severe spine and wing deformity's from clipping their wings.
Also, how does it make the pet keeping experience easier for the bird?


Clipping wings is fine if the bird is already tame (preferably hand raised) and it is clipped the right way (Callatya's post. They can still fly enough to get around).
I wouldn't do it though.


*edit...there will be no flaming or name-calling.

*Edit.. Sorry Jason. I'll hide my insults better next time.

Last edited by jason_r_s at 24-May-2005 11:10

Last edited by Dave. at 25-May-2005 05:50

IMO you should clib the primary flight feathers of BOTH wings, not just the one, leaving the outer two feathers intact. I have my birds clipped in this manner and it causes far less injuries than clipping only one wing. My tiel had one wing clipped when he was younger, and it has caused him no end of problems. Dislocated wing city!

BTW, by paakeet, do you mean budgie? If so, wild style or show?

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Cory, what kind of wild birds do you keep? Hmmm, I wonder what kind of pet a sparrow would make.... But you are 1000% right on the wing issue.

Dave, where did you get that little bit of info? If a bird can fly away from you, it will. That's the little pain in the butt called natural instincts. You don't see robins hopping onto your hand just waiting to be petted. If you restrain a bird and do not let it fly, then you will be causing more psychological harm than if you just have the wings clipped in the first place. It is a quick, painless procedure which does a world of good and makes the petkeeping experience much easier for both the keeper and the animal.

I think all birds should have clipped wings. Especially the wild ones.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

Never clip a birds wings. They are very easy to train, so it's not needed.