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what was he doing at the house under surveillance?

Actually, I'm pretty sure we do know this, just from his family. This young man had the misfortune of living in the flat next door to the one used by the bombers to assemble their bombs.

A man used to the high temperatures of Brazil finds this particular English day to be a little chilly and wears a coat out. He then walks out of his building which, unknown to him, is under surveillence by the police because one of the flats in the building is being used as a hideout to make bombs. Then, for reasons now known only to himself and God, he jumps the turnstyle at the tube station and runs like mad from the police when they tell him to stop. The rest is history. The way I see it, no one is guilty of criminal behavior. Just an extremely unfortunate consequence of an attack on the trust that holds free societies together. Very sad.

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Back in the saddle!

" i don't think anyone here can speak to the mindset of a suicide bomber unless they are one"

Nor can we speak from the mindset of the people assigned to catching the terrorists, yet everyone seems to be an expert on how to catch terroists and has no problems pointing out where they thought the police went wrong

I agree with NoWhere Man, the guy was a victem of unfortunate circumstances and why he ran and struggled, we will never know. Im sure the people who killed him are far from happy and it is a shame they have to live with this the rest of their lives. All they tried to do was protect the city.

My sympathies are with the victem and the police ='

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

"Nor can we speak from the mindset of the people assigned to catching the terrorists, yet everyone seems to be an expert on how to catch terroists and has no problems pointing out where they thought the police went wrong"

...Which is why you don't see anyone starting their sentences with "if I were one of those counter terrorist officials...". It has been said that the police practiced bad judgement and the resulting outcome was tragic, which, even when glanced upon by neutral eyes, it was.

"I don't happen to recall that guy strapping things to himself and detonating a bus."

exactly...no-one could have been sure if he did or didn't apart from the fact that his behaviour suggested it was a possibility.

"I agree with NoWhere Man, the guy was a victem of unfortunate circumstances and why he ran and struggled, we will never know. Im sure the people who killed him are far from happy and it is a shame they have to live with this the rest of their lives. All they tried to do was protect the city"

Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't think the police were happy they shot the wrong man.

"Which is why you don't see anyone starting their sentences with "if I were one of those counter terrorist officials...". It has been said that the police practiced bad judgement and the resulting outcome was tragic, which, even when glanced upon by neutral eyes, it was."

No ones is saying it wasn't tragic, that's obvious. If I were a counter terrorist official and I followed someone who acted in a manner which said to me I think he's about to kill and maim scores of my fellow countrymen I'd have probably done the same thing. What if this man was a suicide bomber. What would the consequences have been then? I'm sure many would have been asking "why didn't they shoot?"

As someone pointed out in a letter in The Times yesterday, these guys had the courage to get within touching distance of a man they thought was going to blow himself to pieces and decide.

Yes they were wrong, but it was the mans own actions that caused them to take the final step and use deadly force. He acted foolishly. He could have have surrendered when the police confronted him the first time, but he didnt.

And the results were tragic, but not as tragic as they would have been had the police had been right and had the chance to foil another bombing and bottle it.

Could you perceive what the headlines would have been then?

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

Touche. I have to admit, running away was not exactly most brilliant thing to do, given the circumstances, but he probably didn't know any better.

Not really in response to anything that's been said lately, but here's an interesting article about the guy:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article301474.ece

It's not the most objective piece of journalism (it's from the Independent afterall...) but it still gives some interesting info about the guy's life.

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 27-Jul-2005 16:52

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Back in the saddle!

We are talking about a society that now accepts that it is necessary to train guns on a crowd of peaceful protestors on a legitimate march for a legitimate cause.

If I were invovled in counter-terrorism, and I did come close to applying for jobs in the security services until I discovered the degree of control they have over their employees' lives, I would be looking at ways to strengthen ties with the Muslim community in the North of England.

why are they feeling alienated? Why do they not generally trust the authorities enough to report suspicious behaviour? How can we tackle this problem in a way that makes all citizens of the UK feel equally valued in their opinions?

Then, how do we tackle far-right groups which fuel this alienation? How do we change the discourse on immigration so that Asians feel less discriminated against? Finally, how can we distance ourselves from US rhetoric?

I have read some very interesting studies about the mindset of female suicide bombers in Palestine, and the mindset of hopelessness. Why has this been translated to the UK discourse? we have a very different society to Israeli/Palestinian society, but clearly there are similarities which have to be identified and tackled.

The London suicide bombers were not the "other", they were one of us, they were integrated into UK society. The question is how did that integration become so warped that it became distructive? These are the questions that need answering to prevent more terrorist acts.

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

The problem is alot of these people don't want to intergrate/assimilate. My brother is a federal agent and has been involved in raids on some of these communities. The media and others who don't know the real picture are quick to scream racism and the civil libertarians jump up and down and scream abuse of civil liberties but I can tell you what they're not told is frightening and a real concern. What happened in London will happen here. I could add more but we'd be going into religion and politics, something I'm sure would cause this thread to be locked so I won't head in that direction. We have to face it....the world is avastly different place now than it was 30, 20 years ago.

i'm very skeptical that the world is that different than it was 20, 30, even 100 years ago. technology has increased at a faster pace than in the past, but people still have the same worries as they did all throughout history. just because there are terror groups all over the world does not mean that we are living in such a different time.

anyway, increasing security does not get at the heart of what causes terrorism, which is what tiny is trying to say with her post. until we can prevent the cause of terrorism, we will always have groups thinking they can use it to gain an advantage.

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"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman

I wonder how this thread would read if for example he had been a suicide bomber and the police had tried to stop him by shooting him in the leg and he had managed to detonate his payload causing massive death and destruction ?

Probably it would be full of posts asking why didn't the police shoot him 5 times in the head ?!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Suicide bombing is almost impossible to defend against, which unfortunately has been proved time and time again. We and the people we trust to protect us have been put into this situation against our will.

We democratic westerners are great at the liberal mea culpa stuff. We brought it upon ourselves by the west interference in other nations affairs is the usual liberal mantra. Nonsense.

I live in an country where this kind of fanaticism exists in very real terms. I see and hear it almost daily, it's been directed at me more then once.

It's got nothing to do with religion, or politics or how one countries citizens have behaved to another countries citizens. It's easy to believe that from a cosy middle class armchair in the west.

It's about what it's always been about since time began.
It's about poverty, dis-illusionment,anger at lifes curcumstances, it's about the need the blame somebody for life's failure, lots of very small very human things. These people whether they're "homegrown" bombers like the one's in London or from the villages of the middle east all have the same things in common. Young, lonely, ill educated, dis-illusioned young men searching for a meaning or purpose to their existance being used and brain washed by a group of pshychotic leaders bent on death and destruction. Religion and polictics are just cynical tools they use for their own purpose - they could give 2 hoots about a Palestinian or anyone else.

Somebody somewhere could find a reason to think the cows in the field are the root of all evil and will find young people willing to die for that cause.

Maybe it's easier to believe it's about politics or religion then to face the fact that it's about something far more human.The fact that a human life, for whatever reason, can fail so miserably that they are willing to commit such a horrendous crime is scary.It's scary because it's something we could all succumb to given the wrong circumstances.

It's part of the human condition to want to feel our life has a purpose and meaning. Take that away and you're left with an empty, lonely, angry shell. One that some evil minds are quite happy to fill with hate and monstrosity.

It's that simple and that complicated. Unless we somehow achieve Uptopia it's always going to be with us in one form or another. Just like Neanthardal man wiping out Pro Magna man........and on and on through out the ages.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I half-disagree with you on this one. If poverty was the main reason for this form of terrorism, then most suicide bombers would be African women, the poorest and most mistreated group of people on the planet. What's scary about the London bombings - and even the 9/11 attacks - is that these guys weren't poor and uneducated. It was just the opposite. They were well educated middle-class (equivilant) people - heck, mohammed atta was a college grad. They weren't poor, but this is what they turned to. Percieved injustice is one thing, but there is an extremely warped idiology behind what they've done that has nothing to do with poverty.

But that's not to say that poverty has nothing at all to do with the broader problem (which is why I half agree with you). Those who plan and carry out these attacks count on the support of millions of poverty stricken people. They portray themselves as people fighting for their "cause" - whichever cause happens to be the flavor of the day. And they do a darn fine job of it too. Maybe if life were better for those millions they wouldn't be so wrapped up in supporting the most dangerous people - the planners, the financiers, the bombers - but I don't know that for a fact. I like to think that once you have a job to tend to, money to deal with, you get too wrapped up in your own life to worry about the words of some fanatic preaching jihad, but once again, I don't know that for a fact. I think it's the idiology that's the problem more than poverty, but the poor economic standing of many in the middle east certainly doesn't help.

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Back in the saddle!

I agree with Bensaf and NoWhere man. There seems to be no one type of suicide bomber. Some of them seem to do it because their poverty and disillusianment(sp?) is so great that their only hope of better living is to give their lives to allah in hopes of going to eternal paradise. OTOH, you have the very fundamentalist middle-class/wealthy muslims who feel that Allah calls them to reclaim their world from the materialistic west. When someone thinks their called by God or Allah or whomever, they tend to do things that to us look completely irrational or horrible...but them it is their duty.

Just my opinion from what ive seen and read.



Also, their is an excellent book out called "The Kite Runner". Its about a boy growing up in the final days of the afgan monarchy and the invasion of the Russians and the eventual take-over by the Taliban. Very good and provides insight into how Afganistan went from being peaceful and prosperous to war-torn and impoverished.

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

I hope tiny and the rest of our london members check in ! I heard about it during the drive in 5 hours after it happened, listening to BBC world service here @work.

Heart goes out to everyone in the UK !

^_^[hr width='40%']"Early morning, April 4
Shot rings out in the Memphis sky
Free at last, they took your life
They could not take your pride

being a Brit abroard, my heart goes out to everyone at home. Still waiting to hear from some friends but don't think they would have been in the area (fingers crossed).

What is the world coming to when terrorist attacks are just 'inevitable' and people can just take another human's life away so brutally! @X*?ers! ]:|

Very very sad
Big hugs and best wishes to all our English friends.

It may not be the right time but I still would like to congratulate you on hosting the olympics in 2012, well done

Tiny clanger still needs to report in !

Yeah spooky if you've been there....worse if you live there I'm sure. There was a shutdown when we were trying to get back to heathrow airport and that was a mess...I can just imagine how bad this was !

^_^[hr width='40%'] Only 13 dives and they're already calling [link=me]http://babelfish.qwertydigital.com/" style="COLOR: #EB4288[/link] a
[/font]

Wow, this was so scary to hear about. I was in London, using the metro and riding on buses, just 4 days ago. *shivers*

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They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

yep, me too, one friend was on the train and got evacuated, all my other friends were already in work so now are stuck with out trains. THank God they are allsafe.

it is very frightening.

is there any one else who has to report in from England/London area.

GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

all ok here, thank you all.

Hope everyone else is ok? thoughts go out to those not as lucky.

Latest report I'm seeing is 33 dead, but that's expected to rise. As many as a thousand injuries. People are being advised to not call emergency lines except in extremely serious situations, and to not go to the hospital if it can be avoided. Scotland Yard says they've been planning it for months, though no one can confirm that the "group" (no one's ever heard of the branch before) claiming credit is actually responsible. They're not sure how the bombs were set off; in Madrid it was cell phones but they don't work in the underground. Several witnesses reported a bomb going off just as another train passed theirs, which makes timers seem less likely. Not suicide bombs, apparently; the bombs (with lots of nails) were left to go off.

EDIT: 37 dead.

Last edited by LittleMousling at 07-Jul-2005 12:33

-Molly
Visit shelldwellers.com!

OMG im so sorry:#(

i hope everyone reports back

Here's what AOL thinks of the bombings...



[/font]

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

I'm seeing BBC WORLD News........



http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/s8xi5heh/my_photos
http://www.geocities.com/s8xi5heh/classic_blue.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/buzaqq/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/corydoras/
Member of the Malta Aquarist Society - 1970.
http://www.maltaaquarist.com

Ok, latest is as follows:

[1] Six explosions reported, still no major update on acsualty figures, but lots of harrowing pictures of 'walking wounded' milling around Tube stations including one woman whose entire head was swathed in dressings.

[2] Some mobile phone networks have reduced bandwidth available to regular consumers in order to increase bandwidth for emergency services use. Vodafone is cited as particularly heavily compromised in this regard. However, T-Mobile is still operating almost normally, I was able to check on a friend in London and hear him relay that he's alive, well but a bit shaken. According to him, it's "mayhem" at the moment.

[3] A number of people have started posing Livejournal entries. Including offers to contact relatives abroad from people who have SMS and net access working outside the Capital. London Livejournal is here

[4] On another Board I susbscribe to, thus far all London members accounted for, alive and well.

[5] Classic FM radio broadcast 13:15 - entire Tube network suspended, people advised to travel "only if absolutely necessary".

[6] BBC news website and others increasingly carrying reports that an Islamic extremist group connected to Al-Qaeda is claiming responsibility.

Anyone here with relatives in the area, your best bet at the moment is E-Mail, as that appears to be functioning normally. Be prepared for some delays in turnaround though as they struggle to get home in the chaos if they're in work.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Sorry to hear all of that, it is just so sad.

Keep us posted,

Ingo in NYC

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Cali if you hear anything more on the news,please tell us..

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I know human beings and fish can co-exist peacefully.

Latest report as of 12:45 here in the UK: large number of passengers trapped in underground train near King's Cross tube station. Injuries/fatailities aboard train unknown at this stage. Emergency services pulling out all the stops to reach the train and rescue the passengers. Additionally, a London bus was blown to pieces in one of the blasts - roof torn completely off the vehicle, fatalities from that blast yet uncounted.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

i know its all over the news!

What.....Thats terrible..i open the link but its not working.I have to check out the news.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_eu/britain_explosion

Last edited by robby1619 at 07-Jul-2005 06:42

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I know human beings and fish can co-exist peacefully.

Latest from Sky News

Reports indicate 2 dead, 90 injured, but death toll may be rising. Updating as I listen to the radio ...

Any Board members living in London, get in here NOW and let us know you're alive and well. Even if the net connections are jammed, give it your best shot.

Fingers crossed for you all ...




Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

@ aol.....

or maybe

Last edited by mattyboombatty at 08-Jul-2005 00:07

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Yeah, I saw this on the news last night just after it happened. The death toll is getting higher and higher, but it seems a lot of people were lucky - certainly there could have been more deaths considering the severity of the event.

I don't know anyone personally who is in London at the moment, but I have been thinking about FP members. Hope you and your families are all okay .



The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. - Oscar Wilde

Everyone is saying that it's the french, because they have lost the olympics 3 times in a row!! Surely that's bulltwang?? Was it al quida??

Best wishes to all our English Members!! And congrats on the olympics!

The latest eems to be that its been claimed by "the secret organisation of al quada" or something along those lines.

*sigh*

its not going to get better from here on in. The more they push, the more it is going to drive the rest of the world to some atrocity that will be frowned upon in the history books. Its beginning to seem inevitable.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

The quip about the French was a piece of humour from someone who'd just been pulled out of a bombed train. When the paramedics reached him and got him out, he said to them "I know the French are ticked off because they lost the Olympics, but this is a bit much isn't it?"

Plus, there's been the usual round of TV interviews with old people saying "Oh, it was much worse than this during the Blitz ... want a cup of tea?"

One of the reasons I love this country. Just been bombed? Put the kettle on. Tidal wave? Put the kettle on. Earthquake? Volcano just appeared in the middle of Birmingham? Alien invaders? Put the kettle on, it'll all seem better after a decent cup of tea


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

The British humor is the best in the world.


Soooooo Dark


Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

:#( talk about some news I didn't enjoy hearing yesterday:#(

I hope everyone is safe, been watching the news and it's awful to see everyone trying to find friends, family, and other assorted love ones...and it definately pulls on my heart...I'll keep ya'll in my thoughts and prayers...

Let's see we have London Bombing, and Hurricane Dennis, then back again...oh for a change, we have HPD everywhereWhy do people have to go and act this way? I thought we were supposed to act like adults here...this is just bull, even a certain 5 year old doesn't act this way, when she doesn't get her way]:|

[/rant]sorry for the lack of warning

"I've got a great ambition to die of exhaustion rather than boredom." Thomas Carlyle

Tiny clanger still needs to report in !

Thanks for thinking of me, I was in Paris on holiday with my parents. One bomb was close to my dad's work, at the tube station he would have been using had he not been on holiday.

Unfortunately, these things happen. Nowt to do but go back to work and get on with life. As it was, it was not as bad as it could have been, and it's not the first time for London, or anywhere in the UK for that matter. For everyone who wasnt directly affected, the only thing to do is to move on, it's not the first time this has happened to us, it wont be the last.

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

Eepp..

I've been on vacation but was thinking about FP members too, glad to hear everyone is mostly safe and sound, just a bit shaken.

*hugs*


-Ferret

-Formerly known as the Ferretfish