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I have seen horrible things beyond imagination at the cat shelter I work at icluding acid burns caused by angry owner, bullets in leg, beatings with bats, loss of limbs and so much more so gruesome it makes you wonder what the (insert 4 letter word of choice) is wrong with people. However I am not a veegan (no offense intended) and I enjoy fish, beef and other meats. I think that all people should not cause any more harm to animals than neccesary to secure their own survival (eating).

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man" Simpsons

djtj,
were you talking about guenea pigs with sores? My little sister had to take hers to the vet a few months back for a problem with sores. They determined that the pig was alergic to the oils in the cedar bedding.

I don't quite get what you're saying there bob...

A pet store in Madison, Wisconsin is visited by a Humane Society officer. The officer sees that a newly born hamster is deformed and rejected by its mother. She asks to see the owner and demands to know how he will handle the situation.

He suggested:
1. Let nature take its course in the enclosure,
2. Euthanize the baby by freezing,
3. Feed the baby to a snake.

Each of his solutions make sense as they are natural or humane. Her answer was humane:
1. Cite the owner for abuse,
2. Seize the animal,
3. Euthanize the animal by veterinarian.

Total cost to the owner - $500. Method of euthanation - freezing.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

I believe a person's treatment of other beings stems from a society's perspective of their "position" within the natural world. Modern western science sees humans as being the top of the food chain, some religions see people as having dominance over the world.

Compare this with some Polynesian/Micronesian societies, whose mythology places humans as being the children of the world, younger siblings to the land and some of its creatures. This familial relationship required that the younger child respect and take care of the older child, and the older child reciprocates by providing for the younger.

This is a broad generalization, of course. A society that feels it is "master" over the land might think nothing of treating livestock poorly because livestock exist to serve the needs of the master. This same theory could apply towards the treatment of other people.

I think it just boils down to respect, and looking out for others, rather than oneself.

the 2nd would be what constitutes an animal.

For example, do you kill the fleas on the dog or do you encourage the fleas to breed on the dog?

Easier for children I guess, but then at what age do they cease to be children? or probably better to phrase it 'when does a child lose innocence and become responsible for its own actions'?

What is questionable behaviour for some is probably perfectly fine for others and utterly abhorrent for others. Its often a matter of perspective.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

The first thing that needs to be determined is what is unethical and who gets to decide.

I'll do graffiti,
If you sing to me in French.

I say the only remedy would be to let women rule the world instead of men. We'd see a big 'ol bunch of changes then let me tell you......

pressing the nuclear button

(out of context from another thread)

Let the cockies take over the world - hey presto, problem solved. Roaches and bees dont have ethics

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

In response to what Cali said:
"Keep on keeping fish.
That teaches you a LOT about respect for other life forms."

That teaches you that other lifeforms...WANT TO EAT YOU!!

Last edited by bayoubuddy at 16-Dec-2005 21:00

Here in Arizona, legislation has recently been passed making animal cruelty a felony punishable by jail time and fines into the thousands of dollars. Has this stopped animal crimes? No, but it has greatly raised awareness of the problem. I believe education is key to reducing animal abuse, but nothing will ever eliminate it. There will always be those few sick individuals. Fortunately, here in Phoenix, they go to jail where they have to be put into segregation so they don't get beaten up by the other inmates.

Those horror stories most vegetarians/vegans try to pass off as the normal care of livestock pale in comparison to what most rescuers have seen done to pet animals. Most of the livestock I've seen were given a large area to roam and graze, a fairly high quality grain, their pens were cleaned daily when they were confined, and they were either given vet care or put down when injured/sick. That's multiple times better than the care of the guinea pigs I rescued or even of small animals in most petstores. I don't find a reason to be a vegetarian. Maybe if the only thing wrong with this world was the treatment of livestock but aside from a few large livestock facilities that use questionable handling it's a pretty minor point when compared to how pet animals have to live their lives. It might be better to be slaughtered after a year or 2 of age than to live several years under conditions of neglect and abuse and then die a slow death to an illness that could have been easily cured.

I have noticed that a lot of people on this planet have questionable ethics when it comes to the treatmemt of animals and children. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how this might be remedied.

Here's my 2¢... Start by yourself and concentrate on that. Forget about preaching to others, it simply doesn't work. Few if none will even hear you.

Changing behaviors in society begins with what you, as an individual, do to better respect all forms of life and the planet we live on.

Small gestures go a long way and people DO see it. That, I think, is the best thing one can do.

Sponge

Interesting topic. I guess you have to start at defining "questionable ethics". Does someone who hunts or fishes have questionable ethics? Does someone who eats meat or fish have questionable ethics? If your child must work for the family to survive, do the parents display questionable ethics? If a child is reprimanded in a loud voice or spanking, do the parents display questionable ethics?

Please define your terms.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

I too have faced high vet bills.
So far I'm up to about $300 dollars between Gizmo and Gadget the pigs. Gadged died 1 day after his $100+ examination and Gizmo is getting sores again after a $200 series of visits to eliminate his bacterial infection...

You'll never make everyone believe that all life should be respected.
I still think education is the key, but it has to be the right education, not jam it down your throat, starting with us. Educate your friends and if they believe then they will educate their friends and eventually the word will spread
Do what you can, that's what I do

strive to live cruelty free and get active in your community. Spread the word and fight the good fight. Lead by example and others will follow! How's that for an answer?

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

$300 No I'm not laughing at you but because my guinea pig just rang up a $400-$500 surgery bill. I refuse to add it all up because I don't want to know the exact amount. Then I just took 2 hamsters to the vet for fleas and got another $100 vet bill. I still owe my boyfriend $50 from what he loaned me to put Licorice through surgery. A few months back my other guinea pig had an eye injury and cost me about $100. My mom said they weren't worth the $30 vet visit to diagnose them all in the first place much less the treatment. They are just guinea pigs right? Apparently that means we can let them suffer a slow death due to a severe bacterial infection or parasites.
It's the same with my fish. I spent $30 treating feeder guppies I'd bought for $1 because I thought the spots on the males were kinda pretty and then they came down sick and were all slowly dying. I don't care if I can replace them again for $1 a dozen fish or $10 a guinea pig. Those are the animals I got and so I will take care of them.

I was raised to respect all life: in pint of fact my mom tells a story of how we were having fish for dinner and we had an aquarium, i finally figured out that we were eating cousins to our pets and i, at 4 yrs old, refused to eat supper and began to cry....I have also on occasion, in some people's books, gotten a little silly. I had a female rat suffering from tumors. I spent nearly 300 dollars on getting them removed and she lived happily for a year afterwards.