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the sooner US petrol goes up to the same price as European petrol, the better for everyone

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

Sorry Bettachris, your thread seems to have gone off track. Maybe the political discussions can be carried on by email.

edit *** spelling

Last edited by Light_Bright at 19-May-2005 07:08

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If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished.

Well Tiny...

I never said that I oppose funding any programs that the US conducts abroad. I willingly support what my country attempts to accomplish to help others. That is who we Americans are.

As for taxes. I pay 38% of my gross income to the federal government. I pay 12% of my gross income to the state government. I pay 2% of my gross income to the municipal government. I pay 6.5% sales tax on everything I buy except food. I pay 7% property tax on the value of my home. I can't even mention the different taxes that are embedded in the price of certain things that I pay for like gasoline. I pay countless surcharges (another word for a tax) on any utility service I have coming into my home. Insome instances the surcharges and transmission charges are higher than the actual product, such as natural gas. When all is said and done I CLEAR approximately 20% of my income to live on. That includes putting the roof over my head, all medical care and everything else. I live very modestly. I have to. I am blessed, I am one of the lucky ones. I manage to be able to have a home and so on.

Quite frankly I think it is unfair of you to wish on me or anyone else in this country more expense for any reason whatsoever..


Last edited by Tammy at 18-May-2005 07:10

Financial pain? Come to my country and pay my taxes

I believe that the UK does have a higher rate of tax per £ earned than the US, tbh. Those who earn over £30,000 will pay 40% income tax, plus sales tax of 17.5%, plus fuel tax, plus council tax, NI contributions, road tax and for businesses, business taxes. The UK even has a muckheap tax!

My point was that China does not have the scientific expertise of the US to construct these alternatives. That is why advancement in these areas must come from the US, which is home to some of the greatest scientific minds of the new millenium. The US, as the surviving superpower will also need to take a leading role to ensure this technology is adopted across the world, not necessarily a financial lead, but certainly a diplomatic one.

And it is important that it does.

ATEOTD, the Developed world can invade as many OPEC states as it likes, can drill in every Wilderness, every ocean. The oil will eventually run out, and in our current state, if that happens, nothing will be left but swathes of destruction and millions of people dying from disease and starvation.

If petrol prices rise in the US, then market forces dictate that alternative solutions will be developed, and that can only benefit every single person on this planet.

And as for the US funding projects abroad which most Americans oppose. Last time I checked, Freedom House still classed the US as a "free democracy." If the people no longer want these projects to continue, then they have a voice and a vote.

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

And here are some more facts...


World carbon dioxide emissions are expected to increase by 1.9 percent annually between 2001 and 2025. Much of the increase in these emissions is expected to occur in the developing world where emerging economies, such as China and India, fuel economic development with fossil energy. Developing countries’ emissions are expected to grow above the world average at 2.7 percent annually between 2001 and 2025; and surpass emissions of industrialized countries near 2018.

The U.S. produces about 25 percent of global carbon dioxide emissions from burning fossil fuels; primarily because our economy is the largest in the world and we meet 85 percent of our energy needs through burning fossil fuels. The U.S. is projected to lower its carbon intensity by 25 percent from 2001 to 2025, and remain below the world average.


A National Research Council study dated May 2001 stated, “Greenhouse gases are accumulating in Earth’s atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing surface air temperatures and sub-surface ocean temperatures to rise. Temperatures are, in fact, rising. The changes observed over the last several decades are likely mostly due to human activities, but we cannot rule out that some significant part of these changes is also a reflection of natural variability.”


Last edited by Tammy at 18-May-2005 06:04

True, there are those here in the United States that enjoy having their gas guzzling vehicles. It is their right, they pay for them.

Sorry, I disaggree... I don't think a large wallet gives anybody the right to contribute more to the global pollution problem. I don't want to get political, so I'm just going to speak about the environmental issue here. This is everybody's planet, rich and poor alike, and having money really doesn't give anybody the right to destroy it and ruin it for everybody else. Gas guzzling is making people sick and destroying the planet we call home. There are also other inhabitants. Plants, animals, etc. that have just as much right to be here as we do. if there was no harm in guzzling fossil fuels, then personally I could care less, but the problem is that it hurts everybody little by little. Global climate change is becoming obvious in places like the arctic, where species like the polar bear are facing rapid extinction.

They are just animals - so what? But pollution is killing us too. Extreme heat and weather and air pollution will become extremely detrimental to humankind in coming years and generations. The effects are already clear. We are seeing an increase in lung and heart disease that many credible scientists believe is linked directly to the hazardous products of fossil fuel combustion. From the David Suzuki Foundation ( one of the leading scientific/environmentalist organizations in Canada):

"According to the Government of Canada, air pollution prematurely kills at least 16,000 Canadians each year. Recent studies show that close to eight per cent of all non-traumatic mortality in Canadian cities is attributable to air pollution.

Burning fossil fuels is the main cause of both air pollution and climate change, and scientists believe that climate change will actually make air pollution an even greater health threat - unless fossil fuel emissions are drastically reduced.

Ground level ozone

Ground level ozone is the nasty cousin of stratospheric ozone. Whereas stratospheric ozone (the "ozone layer" protects plants and animals from ultraviolet radiation, ground level ozone is a primary ingredient of smog. Higher temperatures increase ground level ozone production - thus climate change will intensify urban smog.

Ozone is toxic at low concentrations and deadly at high concentrations. It bursts cell membranes in the lungs, and as cellular fluids build up, breathing becomes more rapid, shallow and painful. The elderly and children are especially vulnerable, and ozone can lead to lifelong damage as lungs stiffen and scar. Ozone also sensitizes the airways to irritants and other allergens. Elevated ozone levels mean more hospital admissions for asthma, respiratory disease and acute respiratory disorders.

Toxic Brew

Air pollution from burning fossil fuels produces many other compounds that hurt our health: carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxide, sulphur dioxide, volatile organic compounds, and small airborne particulates. They can cause impaired lung function, shortness of breath, wheezing, asthma attacks and premature death.

Air pollution is also the primary culprit behind rising levels of asthma. A recently published 10-year study of Southern California communities showed that children living in smoggy areas were three to four times more likely to develop asthma than those living in cleaner areas.

By reducing our use of coal, oil and natural gas, we can save thousands of lives and lessen the threat to human health of both climate change and air pollution."

Here's a fact - The USA is the world leader right now as far as greenhouse emissions go, and so far the trend is that it will continue to increase. People can live without gas guzzling vehicles but they can certainly not live without clean air. The wealthy do not have the right to deny the rest of us our rights to live long and healthy lives. The solution is simple really, we all need to make sacrifices now to ensure the health of our environment and ourselves in years to come. If that means owning hybrid and compact vehicles with greater fuel efficiency and developing renewable fuel alternatives instead of guzzling gas, it seems a small price to pay.

A few links on climate change and pollution:

[link=http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/]http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/" style="COLOR: #fee100[/link]
[link=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3143798.stm]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3143798.stm" style="COLOR: #fee100[/link]
[link=http://www.ipcc.ch/]http://www.ipcc.ch/" style="COLOR: #fee100[/link]
[link=http://www.climatechange.gc.ca/english/default.asp]http://www.climatechange.gc.ca/english/default.asp" style="COLOR: #fee100[/link]
[link=http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/what_we_do/climate_change/index.cfm]http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/what_we_do/climate_change/index.cfm" style="COLOR: #fee100[/link]
[link=http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/climat/home_en.htm]http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/climat/home_en.htm" style="COLOR: #fee100[/link]
[link=http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/nacc/default.htm]http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/nacc/default.htm" style="COLOR: #fee100[/link]

[hr width='40%'] [link=you're keeping in step, and in line, got your chin held high and you feel just fine, cause you do, what you're told, but inside your heart it is black and it's hollow and it's cold]http://www.kraftfoods.com/koolaid/ka_main.html" style="COLOR: #fee100[/link] [/font][/font]

So Tiny...

China and the rest of Asia isn't playing a part in the oil market in todays world? Everything falls back on the US the way you make it sound. What China alone is doing should be a grave concern of yours and anyone else here with a brain. I'm not only referring to oil either.

If other governments ALONG WITH the US would stand up to the oil rich nations and demand a fair price for the oil then one thing is certain, the price of oil would drop. Where is your concern about the governments that took part in the oil for food scam? What about the hundreds of thousands of people who were starving so a handful of countries and one very nasty person could benefit from all that oil? I have never heard you complain of that. We wouldn't be in the spot we are today had the majority of the world not turned their backs on the corruption that was taking place and still does to some extent.

True, there are those here in the United States that enjoy having their gas guzzling vehicles. It is their right, they pay for them. We also pay our hard earned cash so that other people in other countries can enjoy the freedoms we have earned. I also don't think I have ever heard you mention that. Financial pain? Come to my country and pay my taxes and watch the ever increasing percentage of that money go overseas in all directions to benefit people other than our fellow Americans and tell me we don't feel financial pain.

Oil production will not cease in anyone heres lifetime. That is a scare tactic.

True alternatives, for when oil is so ridiculously priced, the world doesnt collapse.

And hybrids have not sold nearly as well in the US as they have done in other major economies in terms of market share. Also, ifthe US were seriously developing hydrogen fuel, we'd have it by now. Seriously, the technology has been around for 15 years now, it has never been adapted to work in cars. There'#s not research money in that.

And Koi, that's not strictly true. If oil was not priced in US Dollars, because of an agreement done with the Saudis in the '50s, the US would not be able to afford to keep oil prices as low as it does, as deficits would not economically allow it.

Doesnt matter anyway, if this is peak oil, then for many people on this site, oil production will all but cease in their lifetime.

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

force US scientists to begin R&D'ing alternatives to oil

So all the hybrids aren't R&D? New models are multiplying rapidly in the US, and I believe GM just dropped 5 billion dollars on hydrogen research.

Bio diesel?

Saw it for $1.89/gal at the SAME PLACE I just got it for $1.92/gal ]:| I swear, I just can't win! ]:| At least, for now, prices are dropping Until tomorrow I suppose...

><>Dani<><

we have more people so we can buy larger quantities and get cheaper prices

Empty chairs at empty tables, the room silent, forlorn.

no, if everyone was paying european prices for petrol, then there would be a much greater incentive for alternative fuels and constructive action on climate change would occur as a byproduct. After all, until people feel some financial pain, they will not be inspired to change from oil.


Also, if analysts are right, and this year was peak oil, the sooner price hikes in the US force US scientists to begin R&D'ing alternatives to oil, the less the impact Peak Oil will have on the world in the next 5 years.


nothing to do with US bashing, that was, in fact, a compliment

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I like to think that whoever designed marine life was thinking of it as basically an entertainment medium. That would explain some of the things down there, some of the unearthly biological contraptions

Anything possible to stick it to those ol Americans... huh Tiny.

how much do u pay for gas. around here it is 2.55/gallon

$2.75-3.15 a gallon, depending on which city I'm in.

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I'm not your neighbor, you Bakersfield trash.

send me some gas at that price. under2.00

$1.87. Missouri has the cheapest gas prices in the nation right now.

2.06 yesterday, prices seem to be easing up a little.

I just paid $1.95 a gallon for regular on Saturday. It has been about $2.05-$2.10 lately though.

I just paid $1.92/gal last night It's been about $2.00-2.50ish/gal around here.

><>Dani<><

Last edited by gartenzwerfe at 16-May-2005 08:50