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Hello,

In one of the above posts GaryRoland says that AmQuel is only for emergency... I was wondering... out of curiosity, why? Please use simple words as I'm no chemist. Thanks.

Former banker now business consultant for small businesses.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Yeah. I've heard such situations as at least anecdotal responses to arguments that patent protections increase invention by allowing investors to recoup. Kinda sad though : (
What industry do you work in?

Azmentl,

You are absolutely correct that patents should protect the process or the ingredients/components/method of the product. However, it assumes a law abiding or scrupulous level of competition.

A client patented his product process. His main customer pirated the patented process and began to manufacture and sell a competing product based on my client's product and process. Fortunately, my client purposely did not document the full manufacturing process. As a result the competitor's product did not function...

Mmmmm.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Oops - forgot to mention. I'm pretty sure that the legal umbrella for such protection would be patent - not copyright. Not that any cares. But the catch about that is if they had the process patented - or it was pending with satisfactory likelihood of approval - then they wouldn't have to keep it a secret. That's the whole point of getting it patented.

what's an emergency level. I've yet to figure that out. I am really hesitant to use chems in the tank (partly fearing the inevitable FP scolding) and I don't know when to pull the proverbial fire alarm.

Thanks for the idea, Bob. I am going to be transporting some fish back from Florida after Xmas, I'll have to pick up a bottle.

I do use AmmoLock as a preventative when transporting fish. I recently picked up discus in Chicago and treated them to a 3 hour plus ride in buckets. I dosed the buckets with AmmoLock before the trip and then again when I began acclimating the fish.

No casualties among the 20 fish.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Oh, okay, thanks. The way it was said the first time made me think it is somewhat harmful for the fish or something of that sort. Thanks.

Bacteria consume ammonia. Not my favorite food source but fortuneately for us it's theirs...

When a tank is biologically balanced and good bacteria are consuming ammonia, no chemicals are required to do the job.

When something happens to upset that balance, ammonia will rise into the danger zone for trops with severe consequences.

That's when a chemical ammonia neutralizer will come into play until the biological balance can be achieved again.

--garyroland.

Last edited by garyroland at 09-Dec-2004 19:25

untitled,
The only time you would need to neutralize the ammonia is in the case of emergencies like during treatment with meds, or if there has been a power failure. For cycling it shouldn't need to be used (although some people do), and on a daily basis it's not needed since that's what the biofilter is for .


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I emailed Aquarium Pharmaceuticals because I was curious and waned to find out how Ammo Lock works:

"I just had a general question about your Ammo-Lock product. I am a university chemistry student and have been looking up info on this product, and all I can find is that it converts hazardous ammonia in the aquarium to "something else." Maybe I am a bit overly cautious with my tanks, but I would like to know what exactly this "something else" is before i buy your product. I have heard rumours that it converts NH3 to the less toxic, ionized NH4+ but I would like to be absolutely sure. I would also like to know out of my own curiosity, exactly how it works, because I am always eager to relate my knowledge of chemistry to my favourite hobby. Any info on the chemical reactions involved in the use of Ammo-Lock would be great. Thanks"

This is what they said:

Thanks for contacting us with your question.

Unfortunately, "something else" is about as specific as it's going to get - the ingredients and mechanism of the reaction are proprietary info. I can say that the "something else" behaves as NH4+, even to the point of being consumed by nitrifying bacteria.

thanks and best regards,

dschaeffer@aquariumpharm.com
Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc.

Now that was super informative of them.

Tryst,

It is often easy to determine the components of a product. Mass spectography can identify those for you. Oftentimes the devil is "in the details". That is, the manufacturing process is the copyrighted or patented item. If industrial "sabotage" (espionage) were as easy as hiring a chemist then ...

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

AmQuel is only for emergency use where a tank has gone out of balance/cycle for some reason and the trops are in danger of ammonia poisoning...

--garyroland.

You could chemically analyze the contents of the AmQuel bottle, but that's besides the point; it simply isn't in AP's interest to divulge any knowledge about how their product works, as a matter of business practice. They have no way to tell the difference between a harmless curious amateur chemist and a genuine competitor. In the Internet age, when knowledge spreads quite freely and far from anyone willing to spread it, there may not be any practical difference. For that same reason you might want to look to a source other than AP to find out about possible ammonia neutralization reactions.

The manufacturer of the product may claim that nitrifying bacteria will consume the altered ammonia but no time frame is mentioned.

That would make sense, as the bonds between the ammonia and unknown Compound X break down, it would become available to the nitrifying bacteria for consumption.

I still have a few years before I start thinking about a master's thesis moondog, don't talk about that.

actually what got me thinking about all of this again was a lab that I did yesterday building electrochemical cells (). We did one where we mixed NH3 with CuSO4 (which turns blue as the ammonia reacts with the copper ions :88)) and it got me thinking about ammonia and ionic bonding. Maybe it's some sort of metallic ion?



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It gets rather involved...

Molecular mass: "The mass of a molecule that is equal to the sum of the masses of all the atoms contained in the molecule."

Take the harmful ammonia atoms that are equal in mass to the harmless atoms and mix them chemically and a dilution/neutrality takes place.

Anyway, you mentioned the reagents tests show ammonia present, and they would, because ammonia present in another form is indeed evident. The reagents, being rather one sided, cannot tell the difference between harmful and harmless ammonia.

Will nitrifying bacteria consume altered ammonia?? To some degree, yes.

The manufacturer of the product may claim that nitrifying bacteria will consume the altered ammonia but no time frame is mentioned.

Eventually the altered ammonia will become diluted with water changes and no further complications from remaining altered ammonia will occur. No bonding with other chemicals will take place.

--garyroland.

well tryst, if you ask me, that sounds like a master's thesis waiting to happen :88)

---

"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman

That does make some sense but if I was really trying to rip them off I could just use mass spectrometry or any other method of complex chemical analysis to find out what's in it and then isolate the active compounds in the reaction to find out how they do it. Unfortunately i don't have that kind of equipment just lying around so I guess I'm in the dark for now. Not that I'm trying to rip them off I'm just curious.

One thing that has me puzzled over their statement is that supposedly the ammonia-something molecule is still available to the nitrifying bacteria. Now, I have heard that even in a fully cycled tank where ALL of the NH3/NH4+ should be consumed by bacteria, you will still get a positive test reading for ammonia in a tank treated with ammo lock.

Is it just me or is there something else happening here?

So I thought about it for a while. . . If the NH3 was just converted to ammonium (NH4+) ions, all of it would be consumed by the nitrifying bacteria and test readings for ammonia should be negative in a completely cycled tank.

My guess is that the ammonia/ammonium ions might be binded to some other compound in a weak (probably ionic) bond that is broken by the testing reagents. While bonded to the other compound, SOME of the ammonia would not be available to nitrifying bacteria, which stays floating harmlessly around in the tank (the compound would also have to be harmless to fish if their marketing is truthful). Then when performing an ammonia test, the reagents displace the unknown compound and react with the now un-bonded ammonia, giving a "false" positive.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Really this is a perfect example of why I personally don't use any chemical additives in my tanks. . . you really don't know what you're dumping in there.

Yes, before you say anything, I am a big nerd.

EDIT: One word, gary: Multitasking :88)



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Last edited by trystianity at 03-Dec-2004 10:13

You haven't heard "rumors", you've heard the accurate answer...

I've stated many times the harmful ammonia ion is converted/exchanged and rendered harmless.

Ion: "An insoluble material of high molecular weight that contains groups which can be exchanged with ions in a solution with which it is in contact."

The exact process in which the ion is exchanged may indeed be insignificant to the hobbyist and the certain chemical action produced a trade secret.

The only problem with budding chemists is that they want to know how everything is accomplished and seldom discover all the answers.

One would wonder how any intense chemical study can take place when one is constantly in the Chat Room.

--garyroland.