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OK - I just read up on Bio-Support and Bio-Clean from the links you provided.

BioSupport is equivalent to Stress Zyme (probably the same maker ). This is good stuff, but I don't know if it is as good as Cycle in the nitrite phase. It could be.

BioClean - consider not using it for now. It is similar to a product called Waste Control by Hagen. Many members here testing similar products ended up with mini-cycles using the stuff because it is aggressive in breaking stuff down. Now, what is debatable is if you use it from the get go on a brand new tank. Maybe that is good, I'm not sure. But I would lean away from such products and handle the waste with gravel vacs. If you begin using it later, always start with less than a full dose of the stuff if you don't want a minicycle.

BioSpira is the bomb - the best ever. If I were you, I'd contact Marineland at their website and ask them directly if they market it any where in Canada. I know they did not when I last checked, but I think there were plans to expand. They had trouble keeping up with demand and actually ran out of the stuff for six months. Maybe now that it is back online, they may have plans to include Canada and other countries.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 13-Jan-2005 09:18

Here it is in the larger scheme of things:

With no real plants the full dose is ok. But with real plants, I'd stick to 1/3 dosing. It will change out with water changes.

Cory_Di attached this image:


Last edited by Cory_Di at 16-Jan-2005 08:54[/font]

Thats the salt alright. Get the large one if they have it. Always keep this on hand. Nitrite spikes are even rarer than ammonia spikes in established tanks and the salt is a life saver. No tank with even a hint of nitrites should be without salt. It is also helpful anytime a fish has a wound as it prevents osmotic shock, even at low doses - like 1/3. Fish lose salt and other electrolytes through open wounds, sores and infections and it helps in that respect.

Here's how I do it, but it is a full dose for the goldie tank at 1 Tbsp per 5 gallons.



Cory_Di attached this image:

The salt I haven't added yet, I forgot to pick it up last time when I was at my LFS. I'll be going Sunday morning to get a new light and will pick some up then. Is this the salt I want to pick up?

http://www.bigalsonline.ca/catalog/product.xml?product_id=28013;category_id=3467

Guess I'll have to go that route if I want the BIO-Spira, no big deal. It would sell like there's no tomorrow if it were available for retail purchase here. I hope you get better results than I did.

That's good. Did you ever add the salt?

I'll probably get the same message back from Marineland on the biospira. Since you are in early stocking, consider getting a pack if it isn't too expensive to ship. This time of year, they shouldn't need cold packs. I would email that company and ask the question.

Here's the reply that I got from Marineland regarding BIO-Spira.


Subject: RE: BIO-Spira in Canada?
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:35:11 -0800
From: "Marineland Aquarium Products" <custserv@aquariagroup.com>

Hello, Jay – Bio- spira is essential in my opinion! Yes- you virtually will NOT get the ammonia /nitrite spiking that occurs with new tanks. We do not have retail sources in Canada but you may obtain it online at fishstoretn.com. It will come with cold packs to keep the live bacteria from deteriorating.

Regards, Cheryl

MARINELAND


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 7:38 AM
To: Marineland Aquarium Products
Subject: BIO-Spira in Canada?

Hi there!

I'm currently in the process of cycling my new 20 gal. freshwater aquarium, and would like to know if BIO-Spira is available for consumer purchase in Canada (Ontario) on the retail market? I have heard/read only positive feedback on this Marineland Labs product and would appreciate any feedback on it's availability for purchase.

Thank you for reading.


Jay Gaughan.


When did you last e-mail them Cory_Di?

Good news! I retested for nitrites this morning, and the reading has come down from 1.6 mg/L to 0.8 mg/L I'll test again in a few more days.

Its a good thing for the Balas and you may want to take a copy of the profile info to the associate who sold them to you. They'll tell you not to listen to internet folks, but I find far better experience here than I do in those chain stores. I have a friend with Balas and they are absolutely huge and in a 125 gal tank - a shoal of them. You'll be able to put more fish in, but I'd do it later. In the meanwhile, I'd make a post in Getting Started with your existing stock list once the balas go back and ask for suggestions once the tank is done cycling. Then add small amounts at a time.

But, you can do some prelim figuring with that formula I provided. It doesn't work for oscars, goldies, angels and other fish that grow big fast and have tall or large mass bodies. It does not apply to fish like "sharks" which, even tho they may only get to 4-5 inches, require large swimming areas so they don't go nuts and cranky.

Make sure you bag your balas, but not before calling the stores ahead of time if they will take them back for cash or store credit. Just say that the research you did (and please do check other internet sources), show that balas require larger tanks, unlike what the associate suggested. I'm sure you will upgrade at some point, then you can have a shoal of them.

Your planted tank questions are best asked in a separate thread in the Planted Tank forum. There are really great people that frequent that forum like Frank and Little Mousling among many others that will know how best to address the lighting issue for your plants. I hope this helps. I'll probably watch for your post there and learn myself.

Shortly after I made my last post, just before I went to a LPS (local pet shop) my internet service went down ], so I was unable to check for any replies.

But I did pick up a 8 fl oz bottle of Cycle, the new and improved more concentrated version. It was on sale for $9.88CDN regularly $14.99... scores!!

I added 20 mL shortly went before I went to bed, pouring 15 mL into the tank in different spots, and the other 5 mL directly onto the Bio-Wheel filter.

Well! I've decided that I'm going to return the 2 Bala's today Better for them, the aquarium and other fish in it. Should I get some money back if I return them to the same LFS? Guess I should hold off on getting more fish right? Or if not, what should I look into getting? While I'm there I'll get some of the salt that Cory_Di recommended.

My plants seem to be doing pretty well, but could be better with a higher watts per gallon ratio. Right now I don't even have 1W per gal., more like .75W per gal. (from a single 15W flo bulb system). That's the downfall of owning a 20 gal. planted aquarium, your options are limited when it comes to upgrading the lighting system. I cut some trimmings off the Anacharis and planted 2 small bunches with 4 stems in each. Does anyone propagate their plants? Any sites out there that cover this topic? (propagation)

Just sent out an e-mail to Marineland Labs about BIO-Spiras's availability in Canada... I tried to call but I was already waiting 15 minutes. I'll post the reply that I get for everyone to read

Thank you again everyone for your help. This has to be the BEST fish forum out there

I emailed them some time ago and asked. I believe it is in there plans and being that they just recently re-released it, maybe it is showing up in Canada. That's why I suggested that it would be good for a Canadian to inquire at the Marineland website.

I believe they are not allowed to import the product into canada, kind of my fault in suggesting. should seen you are from here.

First, my tank is a 20 gal. I have a couple questions about step #4... and a couple more after that . After waiting 5 minutes for initial color to develop (noticing color), and after shaking a second time, do I have to use the color change (if any?) after the second shaking to get my test reading?... If there is NO color change between the first and second shaking is that what it means by having 0 mg/L of nitrate?

Should I have any Nitrate readings after my aquarium being setup since Dec 28, 2004?

I did a couple other tests today, using all Nutrafin test kits (just purchased nitrIte, nitrAte, and KH/GH tests last night).

pH - 8.0
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 1.6
Nitrate - redoing (1st test was around 20 mg/L - 50 mg/L but wasn't sure about the shaking and colors)
KH/GH - next

Previous tests:

Dec 30, 2004 - pH 8.0/ammonia 0
Dec 31, 2004 - pH 8.0/ammonia 0
Jan 6 , 2005 - pH 8.0/ammonia 0
Jan 11, 2005 - pH 8.0/ammonia 0

Could the ammonia have come and gone on a date that I didn't test?

Current fish:

1 female Betta added Dec 30, 2004
2 small 3" Bala Sharks added Dec 31,2004
2 Dwarf Gourami's added Jan 6, 2005
6 Rummynose Tetras added Jan 6, 2005

Live aquatics (no plastic):

Added Dec 29, 2004
1 Anubias 'Nana' <---- I think (divided into 3 seperate)
1 Hygrophila Polysperma (divided into 2 seperate)
2 Anacharis (propogating 2 more small)
Added Jan 11, 2005
1 Corkscrew Vallisneria
1 Hornwort or Cabomba

Has anyone used Big Al's Bio-Clean or Bio-Support? That's what I've been using to date. No dead fish yet!

I'll do my best if there's any questions. Thanks ahead of time

Nope - don't touch that filter pad, unless you see it is hindering flow. Then you can lightly rinse it in a bucket of old tank water. You don't need to lose any bacteria right now. I would hold off on gravel vacs too. You can hover over the top of a section to collect some poop, but try not to disturb the gravel. Don't wipe the glass either, other than the front as you need to see. The slimey stuff grows everywhere and that is the good bacteria. It's colonizing even the outside filter intake right now and I'd let it be. Those are things you can clean once you have a strong colony. That sometimes takes weeks or months. New tanks, even after they fully cycle are often easy to throw into minicycles.

Consider picking up some New and Improved Cycle. It does work good for the nitrite phase.

Your values will always be lower right after a water change. They tend to bounce back up 12 or 24 hours later if you are in a minicycle, unless you have some bacterial help or it is coming to an end.

Have you added the salt? It can save your fish during a nitrite spike or cycle. I've placed instructions above as it should never be dissolved in the tank unless it is in a closed container or predissolved. If you can only find the quick dissolving flake salt like Jungle offers, then predissolve it in a bottle of conditioned water and slowly dribble some of the solution in over the day for a half dose and over 2 days if you use a full dose. I would go with a half dose since you have plants. YOu can even do 1/3 dose, but you need some salt in that tank to prevent nitrite uptake into the bloodstream. Many plants can tolerate low levels of salt.

You can also pick up a product like Prime or Amquel Plus. Both will deal with ammonia and nitrites. However, there is a risk of a very high false-positive ammonia reading with these. It will also remove nitrates, which your plants won't like. This may slow the cycle, but it may be good to have some on hand in case you start to lose fish. At that point, it is worth having something on hand.

I know this may be sensitive and hard to do, but you may consider taking back the balas for now and bring them home another day. It would not only reduce the bioload, but give you time to figure out a good, long term strategy. Many will tell you that balas cannot live that long in a 20. They will certainly attain a good 4-5 inches in a years time, if not more making them stressed and stressed leads to disease for them and the other fish. Their size will also stop any further stocking.

In inches, if you take the length x width of your tank and divide by 12, you will get the maximum number of fish in inches that can be in that size tank. We use the adult lenth or the maximum length of a larger fish that he can reasonably attain in the time you plan to have him in that tank. For eaerly stocking and cycling we recommend 1/4 of that max stocking level, then adding only small numbers of fish with weeks or a month in between for the least stressful transition. If you have a 20 regular, unfortunately, your surface area is even less than a 20 long. Once you calculate, then add up the length of your fish in inches, I hope it will be easier to see how stressed the biofilter is.

Unfortunately, chain store help is not among the best and they often mean well. Some do know what they are doing, but I've found many do not. I went to a large chain store around here and they had just hired someone who never kept fish and they were training her. Consider that fish store tanks are well over max load, but they are often replacing water several times a week if not daily and the fish are there short term. Many of these newbies that get anointed in that place honestly believe a bala or a gold pleco, silver dollar, or goldfish can go into 10 and 20 gallon tanks.

Good luck, don't lose hope and stick around! We're here to help. Keep us posted and let us know what those numbers are. I use Aquarium Pharmaceuticals because they are the most economical and the easiest to read. I always have to throw out my testers after one year because no matter how many times I use them, weekly or otherwise, I never seem to deplete it. I'm very familiar with that nitrate tester and I think the instructions are pretty clear too with their stuff.

Diane

Last edited by Cory_Di at 13-Jan-2005 08:51

Last edited by Cory_Di at 13-Jan-2005 08:52

Last edited by Cory_Di at 13-Jan-2005 08:55

sorry just realised wrong test DUH. ok back to the right test 5 drops of bottle 1, 5 drops of bottle 2, 3 drops of bottle 3 shake and wait five minutes. shake again and read and once again as in the last post thats all i do and it works for me. hope this has been of some help if its not. sorry i won't happen again

i can't remeber the name of the tests that i use (sure in is nutrafin though)but from the description it is the same as yours. i got these tests recomended to me by my LFS. value for money, ease of use, and because the guy sayed that they are the ones that he uses.

anyway getting to part of your question, in the instructions i'm sure it just says add five drops of the first bottle and five drops of the second bottle shake and wait two minutes then shake and read. when i test thats all i do and it seems to work for me.

Should I try gently rinsing my Rite-Size filter cartridge for my Penguin 125? or will I disturb a good colony of nitrifying bacteria? I'm sure it's covered with all kinds of old plant debris that may be decaying.

Thanks

Here's a link to Bio-Support and Bio-Clean

http://www.bigalsonline.ca/catalog/product.xml?product_id=28713;category_id=2225;pcid1=2207;pcid2=

http://www.bigalsonline.ca/catalog/product.xml?product_id=31089;category_id=2225;pcid1=2207;pcid2=

Does anyone else living in Ontario, Canada know where to buy Marineland Labs products such as Bio-Spira? I've heard that it's a great product.

I performed a 25% water change last night, and vacumed approx 2/8th's of gravel, retested the Nitrite and found the color to be slightly lighter. Added 2 mL of Bio-Support in with 5 mL Aqua Plus, poured in slowly a bit at a time while filling. I'll leave changing the water for at least another week or longer.

What test kits are everone else using? I'm thinking of trying a different brand like Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. I'll be going to my LFS in about an hour with a bag of aquarium water, so if anyone could suggest what I should definately look into purchasing to turn this stressful situation around I would greatly appreciate it... as will my fish! Looking to upgrade my lighting system as well, from a single 15W flo tube, to something dual strip light... any suggestions?

Thanks alot to everyone for their help so far

Should I have any Nitrate readings after my aquarium being setup since Dec 28, 2004?

most likely not. There is not the bacteria colony to convert nitrite to nitrate.

Nitrite - 1.6, Nitrate - redoing (1st test was around 20 mg/L - 50 mg/L but wasn't sure about the shaking and colors)

A high nitrite reading can give false nitrate reading. And that is a high nitrite reading.

That's what I don't understand though! How can I have (5) 0 mg/L tests for ammonia within 14 days of a new aquarium being setup?

The tank has partially cycled and is in the second "phase". Here's a link for the "cycle" incase if you hadn't the chance to read it.
http://www.fishprofiles.net/faq/begin-cycling.asp

The fish store employee was actually irresponsible or for the lack of information sold you to many fish for your new tank. Generally you want to add about say for example 4 zebra danio to cycle(or other hardy fish). The full stocking of the tank caused a large ammonia spike and then your still riding out a nitrite spike. Poor water quality is a major factor in fish disease.

There's been fish in there since Dec 30, 2004 to start the cycle, and I've been adding Bio-Clean and Bio-Support when It's called for. I did a (approx.) 30% water change on Jan 6, 2005.

For the most part you want to aviod doing water changes while cycling PROVIDING the ammonia and nitrite reading are not lethal, which unfortunately are in your case. I would reccomend doing a 25% water change and taking another nitrite. Another water change may be in order to lower the nitrite and prevent disease or death.

If you haven't checked the FAQ section it is a good place for information.
Have fun with your new pets......openwater

Last edited by openwater at 12-Jan-2005 23:34

What is Bio-Clean and Bio-Support? Sounds to me like live bacteria that eats ammonia and nitrite . Plants are also consumming some of it.

If you are showing any nitrates at all, especially above 10ppm, I would not expect to see your nitrites stay at that level or any higher. However, to be safe, I would add some freshwater aquariums salt (dosing and method dependent on species in the tank). Salt inhibits nitrite uptake into the bloodstream. I would have it in there at the hint of any nitrite at all.

One method I like to use is to put a full dose or half dose of rock type freshwater aquarium salt like Doc Wellfish into a disposable glad container with holes poked into the cover. Sink it and it will gradually dissolve over time - usually days. An abrupt dosing or removal of salt can bring on osmotic shock so slow is better. Even salt sensitive species can handle larger doses of salt with this method. If you have catfish, otos or any other sensitive type fish, use less than a full dose - like half dose.

I would take a bag of water to a fish store for testing of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Test the nitrate yourself using your tester out of the same water that you take to the fish store and compare numbers . Plants should do well with that half dose, but you can post separately in the planted forum what plants you have to find out if half dose (usually 0.5 Tbsp per 5 gallons) will harm your specific plants.

I do have a comment tho about the stock. The balas - I hope you have plans for a very large tank, like minimum 55 gallon or larger. These fish really don't belong in a 20. With so little space, there WILL be trouble, not to mention they get big, albeit they grow slow.

Here's the profile and note the size and other considerations:

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/silvershark.xml

EDIT: The nitrite could be coming from stocking at a quick rate. Typically we watch for zero ammonia and nitrite, with rising nitrate (at least 10 ppm) - wait a good week or two, get some water changes and gravel vacs in to see how the tank responds, see if anyone is sick, then add a few more fish, watch the parameters and wait a few more weeks, and on and on. Hopefully, you'll consider a quarantine system. A 5 gallon tank can do this well.

At the rate you are going - a week apart, you run the risk of introducing a sick fish, or building the bioload faster than the biofilter can respond.

Here's some interesting data:

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

Last edited by Cory_Di at 12-Jan-2005 23:04

Last edited by Cory_Di at 12-Jan-2005 23:08

Last edited by Cory_Di at 12-Jan-2005 23:09

Thanks Diane,

I was expecting to have to wait, not because it's a real stumper!! just had that feeling.

The guy at my LFS said that Hagen is one of the better tests out there. For the price of a few of their kits, they should be!

I was starting to wonder if maybe my ammonia test kit was deffective or something, always giving the big "0 mg/L" result, not that there's anything wrong with 0 mg/L of ammonia! I was doing a partial water change for my male Betta, and thought that I'd test some of his water sitting in his little setup... I got a reading of 0.1 mg/L, guess it does work.

That's what I don't understand though! How can I have (5) 0 mg/L tests for ammonia within 14 days of a new aquarium being setup? There's been fish in there since Dec 30, 2004 to start the cycle, and I've been adding Bio-Clean and Bio-Support when It's called for. I did a (approx.) 30% water change on Jan 6, 2005.

My latest test results for today:

pH - 8.0 (Has never changed)
Ammonia - 0 mg/L (... same deal!!)
Nitrite - 1.6 mg/L (1st time)
Nitrate - between 20 mg/L and 50 mg/L (1st time and still not sure about the shaking and colors)
KH/GH - KH 120mg/L and GH 70mg/L (1st time)

I'm kinda stumped on the 0 ammonia readings any ideas? And thanks for the input


Last edited by bala shark at 12-Jan-2005 20:46

Sorry no one has responded, but maybe no one is using a nutrafin. I know many people use this tester:

[link=http://www.popular-freshwater-tropical-fish.com/store/test-kits.htm]http://www.popular-freshwater-tropical-fish.com/store/test-kits.htm" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

Look carefully at the instructions and try to follow them to the letter. Hopefully, someone will see your post who uses it and clarify it for you.

Diane