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I truly wish Griffin would remove his website and get with the program...

Not only is his "fishless" method of starting a new tank overstated and e to error, but many, and I mean many, would-be hobbyists have been asking where the heck one can find "pure" ammonia.

Since people have tested fishless cycling, and people have tested Bio-Spira, and in both cases published the results, it would seem that the burden of proof is on you to show that NIC works, and fishless cycling doesn't.

[span class="edited"][Edited by Silverlight 2004-08-28 17:23][/span]

"Starter" fish are not required when dosing NIC...

Any tropical can be placed in the tank once acclimated.

Once a tank is fishless cycled I believe there's no need for "starter" fish either.

--garyroland.

"Can't we all just get along" is what Rodney King said about the riots in LA all those years ago. It was supposed to be a joke :%) I guess it loses something when it's typed out! LOL. Oh well.

I agree that fishless cycling should not be considered a faster why to cycle, but if done right, it is a faster way to get more that a couple fish in there. It's kind of a trade off, as you have to tuff it out without any fish, but then you can add more at one time than the regular cycle method. Of course, it all depends on how much ammonia you seed, and the total stocking number doesn't go up as some people think.

And for the record, I didn't do it so I could add more fish sooner. I did it to learn about it, and to avoid the stress on the starter fish.

-Dennis

We do get along, Dennis...

This is how we get along and everybody is loving it.

We talk water quality and FP members have various opinions on the subject. That's how it should be.

Your method will work as long as you don't overwhelm the forming bacteria with too much ammonia. That action would set the tank back a few weeks until the bacteria population grows larger.

But your action was really not a shortcut because you could have added fish immediately after dosing NIC.

--garyroland.




[span class="edited"][Edited by garyroland 2004-08-29 18:25][/span]

I used "Griffin's" fishless cycle method,

and combined it with "garyroland's" NIC

both worked great! Together, I fishless cycled a 60gal in 1 week!

Can't we all just get along?

-Dennis

[span class="edited"][Edited by Beefshank 2004-08-29 18:08][/span]

Actually that's not true...

The bacteria starters, unless with Bio Spira, where the bacteria have died because of the lack of refrigeration and/or too warm a climate in transportation, the bacteria have no choice but to populate a new tank.

The variables with the New Improved Cycle are minimal at best and here's why...

The newby, not realizing fish have to be added right after dosing, just dosed the product and waited.

Another scenario would be the dosing of the product where a shortage of ammonia, because of too few fish, resulted in a dying bacterial population.

And here's the kicker...They failed to read the bottle directions. In today's world I've discovered a whole subculture that can't read a word of English and those who can are unable to interpret the meaning of the words.

Never believe a newby when they say the new bacteria starters do not work. They do when properly administered.

--garyroland.



[span class="edited"][Edited by garyroland 2004-08-29 18:15][/span]

Several threads of the past have tried "fishless" cycling and have miserably failed in the effort.

Several threads of the past have tried regular cycling and have miserably failed in the effort. Several threads of the past have tried bacterial starter and have miserably failed in the effort. It's like the evening news... there isn't really a story about the highway until there's a ten car pileup. Just because that's mainly what is reported, doesn't mean every time you get on the highway you can expect to see a ten car pileup.

You'll all take note that my "dramatics" tend to wake the dead and put some life into an otherwise ho-hum Forum...

Several threads of the past have tried "fishless" cycling and have miserably failed in the effort.

I've fishless cycled a few times before the advent of the "new" bacteria starters that provide live bacteria, not dormant, required to kick-start the cycle, and I can tell you it's a pain in the rump.

But, as Tammy has insisted, if a beginner wishes to observe the bacteria process in action, I guess she may have a point.

My "Griffin" comment was only directed at the fishless cycling article, not the other so-called educational sites he provides.

In this day of hurry-up and "show me the results" attitude of many, I have a difficult time believing anyone would choose such a slow and arduous way of cycling a tank combined with a potential of ammonia overdosing.

I mention "overdosing" because I have done it. The mistake would have delayed the cycling process by least two weeks if I hadn't tried to dilute the ammonia by removing some water and replacing with new.

It's a "have fun" situation at best.

--garyroland.

Desdinova (Greg)...

Gary tends to get alittle over dramatic when people choose options other than the ones he promotes. It happens fairly often, unfortunately.

Fishless cycling a tank is a great option for people who care about not stressing fish at all. That is about as error free as it gets.... where it counts.

Mr Tom Griffin should be applauded for bringing this method more into the mainstream of home aquaria. Imagine how many millions of fish have been spared any type of distress due to unhealthy levels of ammonia or nitrite because of the articles he put forward for us all on the internet.

I'd even go out on a limb and say that people who use this method tend to come to a better understanding more quickly of the water chemistry involved with maintaining a well balanced tank. Great confidence builder if you ask me.

No offense to the people who swear by using the "starters" out there. I see nothing wrong with that if that is the method they choose. I just wonder how many people take the time to understand the mechanics of the cycling process if they are relying on these bio-starters to do the job for them.

Oh, and plain ammonia can probably purchased in any grocery, hardware, discount or dime store. All you want to look for is ammonia that has no additives. If when you shake the bottle the ammonia bubbles up at all, don't buy it. Very Simple.

I got "pure ammonia" at Stater Bros. It took 7tsp to get a 60gal to 5ppm. Stuff from a chemical factory probably has more ammonia, and less water, so it would take much less. BUT, if you get what I got, you could pretty much start out with 7tsp, then add a little more for your 75gal.

By the way, there is plenty of stuff you can do while fishless cycling:

-decorate the tank
-work on lighting
-run the power cords correctly so they don't hang down the middle of the glass

plenty to do! try it, its just water!

-Dennis

[span class="edited"][Edited by Beefshank 2004-08-28 20:54][/span]

I know where to get pure ammonia (my friend owns a small chemical company). I am wary of using it though, as I am more or less a beginner.

-greg

I see what you're saying, garyroland, but not everyone is a beginner. I have never had a problem buying "pure ammonia". I've also never had a problem with my bioload nor mini cycles after introducing the full load of fish after having completed a fishless cycle. Not everyone is doomed to failure if not using the methods you prescribe

edit- I am not a follower of "griffin". I do not know nor care who that is.

[span class="edited"][Edited by jake 2004-08-28 20:26][/span]

Fishless cycling does indeed "work"...

And so does the hobbyist trying to get the correct amount of ammonia to develope a good nitrifying bacteria population.

Most, but not all, beginners overdose the ammonia and discover they've just set the tank back three or more weeks before a good bacterial population can catch up and consume the ammonia.

The new bacteria starters are not "concoctions".
They are in fact a very natural way to provide nitrifying bacteria rapidly to a new tank.

Only a few fish can be added at first so too much ammonia doesn't overwhelm the bacteria trying to consume it. A bacterial balance is formed rather quickly using that procedure. More fish can be added in about a week.

You can keep asking me all you want about the product and I'm still going to tell you I've dosed it many times in brand new tanks, added fish, dosed some a little later as suggested and tests showed a real good bacterial balance.

For those of you "Griffin" followers, you may purchase "pure" ammonia at Wal-Mart under the brand name "Great Value Clear Ammonia".

--garyroland.

How many tests, roughly, can you get out of Aquarium Pharmaceutical's Freshwater Master Test kit? I plan to fishless cycle a 75USg. Can I expect it to last through the cycle and well into the stocking stage?

I've used ammonia to cycle a 55 gallon tank, seeding the filter with media from an established filter. The 55 gallon tank was cycled and ready for fish in 8 days. I hardly call that cumbersome, nor does it make anyone using the fishless method outdated or otherwise wrong. NIC, Bio-Spira and the like are good tools, but hardly form the basis of correct tank cycling. I think depending on a bio-starter chemical concotion to ensure your full load of fish does not meet an untimely demise due to the stresses of an uncycled tank is what is pure folly.

Thanks Gary for you input. Since you are an veteran Aquarist, I do not take your advice lightly. All I can say is that I have been reading alot of posts on this website and although some people favor the method you prescibe, many more seem to prefer fishless cycling. It gets somewaht confusing for someone like me who wishes to immerse themselves in what is a fascinating hobby. I am by nature very cautious and patient, so whatever method I go with will be thought out very carefully. I enjoy the planning and preparation stages of any project almost as much as the end result.

-greg

I truly wish Griffin would remove his website and get with the program...

Not only is his "fishless" method of starting a new tank overstated and e to error, but many, and I mean many, would-be hobbyists have been asking where the heck one can find "pure" ammonia.

I would guess if you're not in a hurry to place fish in your tank then the super cumbersome "Griffin way" could be your decision.

Hobbyists have reported they regret ever starting fishless cycling. The testing, dosing, testing, dosing, goes on seemingly forever and ever.

If would-be hobbyists ever get modern and start doing things the easy way, they'll discover just how rewarding the art of fishkeeping really is.

The new bacteria starters like Bio Spira and the New Improved Cycle were developed for just such a purpose.

There's no way on earth you can beat dosing a little NIC, placing a few fav fish in the tank right away and start enjoying the hobby as it should be enjoyed.

I've used NIC to jump start several new tanks and I can tell you it does what it's advertised to do.

Adding ammonia and NIC is pure folly and something to avoid.

---

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals can be reached for questions at 1-800-847-0659.

--garyroland.





[span class="edited"][Edited by garyroland 2004-08-28 15:15][/span]

Just to confuse matters, Aquarium pharm now has two "master" test kits. One does not contain nitrAte, one does have a nitrAte test kit. Personally I have the one that does not come with the nitrAte, it has the kh, gh, and two ph tests that I prefer....buying the additional nitrAte test wasn't a big deal to me.

^_^

I got the Aqua Pharm Master test kit and it did not have nitrate test. It is sold seperately, however.. same type bottle and all.

As far as NIC and fishless cycling go, I don't see why ammonia cannot be used in conjunction with NIC. It should turn cycling the tank into a very short venture. Get the ammonia to 5ppm and add NIC to start off with, then continue the fishless cycling from there. Sounds like a winner to me.

Hi,
I'm also from USA and use the Aqua Pharm Freshwater Master Test Kit. Mine came with pH, high range pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. At least 700 tests. The GH and KH had to be
purchased as a separate kit.