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Jason : I think I heard that before...

I agree with you that it seems like Steve wants to maintain a neutral pH. But until he confirms it, I see no sense in throwing at him solutions that are not specific to his need.

I have a degree in chemical processing... if someone is qualified enough to give solutiuons in that sphere of aquaria, it's me. Now, I was wise enough to ask a simple question before I spill my recipe book in here.

Last but not least : NO, sodium bicarbonate is NOT a buffer. It's an unreliable buffer at best. And yes, like you, I've heard / read that sodium bicarbonate is a buffer. I even read that it is the perfect buffer to use with African Malawi Cichlids as it supposedly mimic the EXACT (quote) chemistry of Lake Malawi. In polite English, it's bovine manure. It's not because you read it that it makes it true. I'm not blaming you at all so don't take it personnaly. I'm simply telling you to be careful of what you read out there. There are loads of BS around.

If I have offended anyone, I'm sorry.

Sponge

I'm a little confused on how much to use. I have a 125G, a 55G and a 29G how much should I put into each one? and do I add more each water change? and if so how much in each change (20-25 G in the 125G, 10-15G in the 55G and 5-7G in the 29G)?

Thanks for all of the advice!

I agree. I've used baking soda in my tank to raise kH without any affect on gH and, if you use just enough, but not too much you can pull it off without raising your pH. I used 1/2 teaspoon in my 29 and it worked fabulously. I started with a kH of 40 ppm and brought it up to 80 ppm and my pH stayed the same...always 7.2. Of course, with a kH of '0' and depending on the size of your tank you will probably have to add quite a bit more than I did.

You are right to be concerned about this as lack of kH can lead to the dreaded "pH crash" that would be terrible for your your fish. One tip: dissolve it in water before adding to your tank as was previously suggested.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Steve,

I would pre-dissolve the baking soda in a gallon jug to make a solution to treat your water at a water change. Each half teaspoon adds 6 ppm per gallon. Since you know your starting point is zero, just choose your target ppm and go.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

the Gh measures calcium and magnesium concentration. baking soda( sodium bicarbonate) conatains neither of the two elements so it shouldn't have an effect on Gh.

Also, what are the steps for using it? In the filter? Do you add more with each water change?

OK, say I use baking soda. I'm assuming (I know that's a dangerous thing) that Kh is going to go up. Will it drive up Gh as well?

The rainbowfish like soft water so a buffer that adds some Kh to buffer Ph without a big impact on Gh would be perfect. I know that is asking a lot and I can live with the Gh going up.

Steve the answer to that is baking soda. Simple easy cheap natural.

It is used in almost all swimming pools to buffer PH. Which is exactly what you want to do. It does not change ph just buffers it.

Empty chairs at empty tables, the room silent, forlorn.

I have sort of the opposite problem and here's how I deal with it. The water comes out of my tap at pH7.8 or pH8 depending on if I use the purifier or not. My tank is an african set-up sort of, my pH aim is closer to 6.8 to 7.2. I treat the water going in at each water change with pH adjust down before it goes in to the tank, after I have used water conditioner. The peat doesn't lower the pH, it helps it to remain steady while it's in the tank. It takes a lot of peat to actually lower the pH significantly and then the fish are hard to see! Adding KH buffer didn't help at all so I have stuck with the peat for maintaining the pH. It doesn't really buffer it because water that hasn't been first treated will cause a bump.
I was also sold a buffer that was phosphate based and would have been poison to my plants had I used it. That was my experience with chemical buffers and I'll stick to my regimen even though it may seem like a lot of work. I feel I am adding less that is unnatural and more that is natural. My barbs seem to like the blackwater and the krib also seems to thrive in it if her breeding frenzy every three weeks is any indication.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Thanks, for all the replies, sorry I wasn't clear with my goal. I don't buy into specific PH for certain types of fish unless they are close to wild caught fish. I believe consistency is far more important. With my collection of Rainbows and the natural PH of my tap water, 7.0 would be a good goal. But, I'd be OK with anything between 6.5 and 7.2.

My real goal is just this: Buffer the water to maintain the natural PH of my tap water (7.0) with a minimum of chemicals and alterations to the system.

Consistency is key! I feel the more I work with the natural properties of my water and the less I tinker with additions the easier it will be to maintain consistency. The problem is that the softness of my water combined with the increased age and biological activity in the tank is making it hard to maintain the water's natural PH consistently. I really just need a simple, reliable, natural buffer.

Could you tell us what is so wrong about using sodium bicarbonate sponge? I have always used it to buffer the water in my tanks.

Some insight would be nice since you are qualified and no doubt have the knowledge to share.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

I used baking soda for several years to buffer ph, and yes it does work great. I don't care if someone with 5 degrees tells me I'm wrong

This is just in my experience. I was buffereing 26,000 gallons of water utilizing 10 pounds of baking soda each treatment. Routine chemical testing always showed it doing its job hrug:

Koi

Empty chairs at empty tables, the room silent, forlorn.

I agree with you that it seems like Steve wants to maintain a neutral pH. But until he confirms it, I see no sense in throwing at him solutions that are not specific to his need.

Granted, some of the answers that have been given will not be helpful to Steve, but they could be helpful to someone else that may be reading the thread who also wants to buffer their ph. there are plenty of people out there looking to buffer their ph to a lower ph for their amazon setup, and others who want to buffer their ph much higher for their African cichlid setups. So my point is that while not all of the answers given will be helpful to Steve, they are also not hurting him, his fish or anyone else either. The other answers could be just as helpful to someone else. Also, I personally don't see anything wrong with providing multiple solutions since Steve hasn't said specifically what ph he wants to maintain. If no one posts until he responds, this thread may drop down the page and be forgotten.

I have a degree in chemical processing... if someone is qualified enough to give solutiuons in that sphere of aquaria, it's me.

there are hundreds of people on this site that are just as qualified to help Steve figure out how to do what he wants to do. imo, the statement you made was a bit rude and elitist. we're all here to help by using our own research and experiences. we're not here to say that "I'm better to answer this question because...".

Last but not least : NO, sodium bicarbonate is NOT a buffer. It's an unreliable buffer at best. And yes, like you, I've heard / read that sodium bicarbonate is a buffer.

to quote you...

I'm simply telling you to be careful of what you read out there. There are loads of BS around.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I will say that, like Sham, I've read in many, many places that baking soda will raise kh making it easier to stabilize and maintain a ph. I've never used it myself so I can't provide my own experience on the matter. However, if you so firmly believe that all of the people out there are wrong, then how about providing some proof instead of just saying they're wrong. Just a note though, if you do wish to do so, please do it in a separate thread so that this thread is not derailed anymore than it already is.

The water in my area has a Ph of 7.0 but zero hardness. As the tanks have aged it is getting harder to keep the ph at a consistent level. I change water frequently which causes a bump in PH followed by a decline over the next few days. I hate using chemicals in the tanks as I've always had much better results with a natural approach but the inconsistent Ph is a concern.

For those of you that buffer your Ph, what is the most consistent and natural way to add hardness and buffer Ph?

How about we calm down just a bit Sponge_Bob. All of the answers posted have covered what to do if a higher ph is desired, what to do if a lower ph is desired, and what to do if a steady ph is desired. so, it seems to me that most bases have really been covered.

Steve, when you get around to reading these replies, let these guys know exactly what kind of ph you want to maintain and they can further assist you. I just want to say though, after re-reading his original post it seems to me he is happy with the ph being 7.0 but unhappy with the fact that it fluctuates due to the lack of kh.

Your acting quite rude sponge. Baking soda has been used by many people in the past as a controlled buffer and is often recommended for raising ph. While I have not tried plenty of others that I know to be knowledgeable have not only researched it but used it themselves at every water change. Personally I would rather use a product like ph stable when I am dealing with zero carbonate hardness instead of baking soda. Most people have also mentioned what each product does so the person can make their own choice. Both bob and I said if you want to maintain a specific ph that using coral and limestone is not that accurate but if you just want to raise it then it works fine. These are by no means shots in the dark but proven methods to reach various ph and accomplish various types of buffering depending on what the person wants to do.

Sponge bob:

"The water in my area has a Ph of 7.0 but zero hardness. As the tanks have aged it is getting harder to keep the ph at a consistent level. I change water frequently which [font color="#000080"]causes a bump[/font] in PH [font color="#000080"]followed by a decline[/font] over the next few days."

The problem is obviously an unstable pH.

adding tannins would in no way halp buffer the pH since it will release tanic acid which will donate h+ ions into the water.

since the pH is declining it can b presumed that he wishes to find something to stabilize it. buffers stabilize pH.


Megil

edit: kindly asks sponge to step of the soap box.

Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 02-Jan-2006 17:54

Sham : Sodium Bicarbonate is NOT a buffer at all and should not be used as one. I could explain why but I won't as it would be too long. I will tell you this though : An alkaline buffer and an alkaline substance is NOT the same thing. I knindly invite you to make some research on the subject if you feel like it.

Now, like I said, you guys are all taking potshots in the dark as none of you knows what the question is. With all the responses that are posted, I am starting to wonder if you really care what the question is or are just post-happy.

Sponge

I buy a product called PH buffer and it brings it to neutral.

My tap water is naturally alkaline

Have a look in [link=My Profile]http://
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Keith

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If you want to just maintain the ph baking soda or any commercial hardness buffer would be fine. Crushed coral and limestone can sometimes be tricky when you want to keep the ph low. The lower the ph the more it dissolves these things and they don't stop dissolving until you reach a ph of around 8.0. Where adding a certain amount of a powdered buffer to the water will maintain a specific ph. I use ph stable by Kent. It's a mix of carbonic acid salts and lists the amount needed to maintain a specific kh and ph if your using ro water. For tapwater you'll have to experiment a little and then add that same amount to all the water used in water changes. If you aren't concerned with maintaining a low ph the coral and limestone would require the least work and maintenance.