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No shells, except some from deceased snails. I really am not sure what my gravel is composed of - it was gleaned from our beach. Much of our rock up here is granite so I'm assuming the gravel is mostly that...to my eye it looks mostly granite & quartz. There might be some limestone, but short of taking it to a geologist and having it analyed...
I don't want to raise my PH that high... And I'd prefer a community tank with softer water. How else am I to get my buffering capacity up??? The few fish seem to be taking the changes ok - do not appear stressed at all.

Well, it looks like rifts it will be! Cichlids were one of the "tank types" I was really interested and I think I'm better off with something that is truly compatible with my water and substrate that fighting the elements. After consideration too, a non-planted tank would definitely be easier! Thanks for all your help Frank (and others too). Look for me in the cichlid section in a few weeks/months!

Hi,
As I mentioned earlier, your tap water is perfect for
nearly every tropical fish. It's your current substrate,
that is causing the difficulty. African Rifts would love
the current substrate, and your regular water changes
(once the gravel is cleaned and put back in) would take
care of the excessive nitrates. If you choose the Rifts,
then be sure to include the limestone, and some rocks as
well for caves and hiding places, also limestone as well.
As the water ages, it will climb in hardness and pH as the
limestone leaches into the water. The Rifts will love it,
and regular 10 or even 20% water changes will not lower the
pH enough to cause a problem and it will return within a
day or so back to the normal high. All without any
intervention on your part.

As usual, it's your call...

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

My goal eventually, is a either an A) nicely planted community tank or B)a cichlid tank - whichever my "tap" water is best suited for (advice welcome). I don't mind working a bit at my water (especially right now when its my own darned fault that things are so messed up)...but a lifetime of constant fiddling with the water...not really! I guess the tear down is the way to go. I'll move my 2 lonely, scared to death tetras into my 10 gallon hospital tank - it needs a couple of fish to get through its cycling process anyway - and trade my pleco in to the LFS (I understand the poor guy ought to be in a MUCH larger tank anyway). Ah well...no rest for the wicked!

Hi,
Goodness you have opened a can of worms!

If you find someone or the LFS will take your fish that is
an option. Your decisions need to be based upon what type
of fish you plan on keeping. By that I mean, if you are
going to keep fish that would thrive in your tap water,
which is nearly all of them, then you would need to loose
the gravel and ornaments in the tank. Clean the tank out
and restart it with regular aquarium gravel.
If you want to keep what you have for gravel, then,
after you clean it, you would want to keep the African
Rift fish, or swordfish, guppies, or mollies.
The Rifts prefer water that is 200ppm - 400ppm GH, while
the swordfish and others prefer water that is 100-200ppm GH.

Don't get me wrong. You can take nearly any water, and
modify it to meet the needs of anything you want to keep.
However, it can get expensive, and means a life of
constant testing, adjusting, and chemicals. It's always
easier to choose something that lives with what you have.

You have not mentioned anything about plants. Do you have
any in the tank and if so, what are they?

I have never used the "Mardel" series of test kits.
I've only used the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals series. I have
the Freshwater Master liquid test kit and and an additional
test for nitrates. That series of tests simply test the
water and the water does not have to meet any predetermined
specifications (as your does) to be accurate.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 29-Apr-2005 12:31

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

oh dear....resolving the OTS is what I'm trying to do.
My test (Mardel 5 in 1 test strips) information booklet stated that 'unless Total Alkalinity (KH?)is within the 120-180 ppm range, the ideal buffering capacity range, any PH readings could not be considered accurate' (???). Therefore, knowing that my KH was reading 0, I did not think I could rely on the PH reading. According to the Mardel folks, even my tap water KH of 80 is on the low side.

So, I'm trying to lower the hardness of my tank with the water changes, and raising my buffering capacity by adding the baking soda to the water changes. Yes???

Also, per your advice I crushed some of my gravel and did the vinegar thing - and you guessed it - Fizz City! So obviously there IS a significant amount of limestone in this gravel. Now what??? To be honest, I'm seriously considering getting rid of the fish, tearing down the tank and staring over.

Hi,

"My understanding was/is, that I cannot really trust my PH readings until my KH readings are in the more normal range???"

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The results of
your pH test is what the pH of the tank is, under the
current conditions. Yes, adding baking soda will change
that reading, but you could wind up "chasing your tail"
so to speak, if you kept adding/testing until you wound up
with some "ideal" readings.

Frankly, I would tackle the OTS problem first, and
once resolved, see what the tanks settles down to. Then,
I'd consider altering the values. I think that once the
OTS is resolved your tank should more closely resemble your
tap water readings and those are great. Anything near them
would be fine for your fish.



-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Frank...thank you!. I am most definitely dealing with "old tank syndrome" and am trying hard to get back on track (just "early retired", I now have a lot more time to devote to this!). I have checked out that website. Previous tank maintenance was minimal...gravel vacs occasionally, and mostly water top-ups instead of proper changes. No plants until very recently.

I did NOT use the product and am/have been only adding baking soda... slowly enough I had thought - just 1/8 tsp per water change (6 gallons). My understanding was/is, that I cannot really trust my PH readings until my KH readings are in the more normal range??? I had planned to continue with the baking soda water changes until my KH reading was ~120-180 ppm???

I'll try to do the gravel/vinegar test to check for limestone..if I can crush some gravel! In the meantime, I've removed most of the rocks. I'll also bring a water sample to the aquarium store to have them verify my results...but as mentioned, they are an hour's drive (each way)...so a "quick trip" to the LFS it isn't...I probably won't be able to go for several more days. As for the chem-strips...I am accustomed to using this type of product in my former line of work...reading them and judging the colors is not a problem...if they are reading correctly - but the test kit is new and well within the expiry date.

Until I can verify my water results and gravel make-up should I continue with the baking soda water changes?

Hi,
Let's see if I have this right...

Your 35G tank has been set up for 30 years, and you
recently checked your water and came up with some unexpected
results:

pH 6.8
GH 425
KH 0
Nitrates 200

Your tap water (well water) is:

pH 6.8
GH 120
KH 80
Nitrate 30

Since then you have been making frequent water changes
in an effort to bring down the excessive nitrates (good),
and at the same time adding chemicals to the water to
modify the GH and KH and pH.

You did not say anything about your aquarium maintenance
habits. That is, how often you change the water, how much,
or vacuum the gravel, or if there are any plants in the
tank.

Generally speaking, as your nitrates rise the pH will fall
from the organic acids being manufactured and
evaporation, and tank top off, will condense them.
Old Tank Syndrome (OTS) comes to mind.
See this link: http://www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html
As the nitrates climb into the hundreds, the KH of the tank
attempts to buffer the acids that are formed. At some point
depending upon the tank and several variables, the system
will "crash" and the pH tumble into the 5's. With the KH
"used up" so to speak, it sounds as though you were hovering
on the edge of the abyss.
As far as the huge value of GH, I tend to think that you
might have gotten a bad, or aged, test kit. Have you had
someone else look at the colors to confirm your findings?
When you next go into town, I would bring some tank
water with you and have the LFS test it to see if
the values are similiar.

I also don't trust the additives that they sold you. I'd
hold off on using any more until you confirm that your
test kit is correct.

You mention that you used local beach gravel and that it
was mostly granite and quartz. Those rocks are inert in
tanks and will not affect your water. The possiblility
of limestone, either as a component of your gravel, or as
ornaments in the tank would explain the high GH. While
Limestone is a carbonate, it contains Mg, and Ca, and other
"impurities" that will increase the GH of the water.
To test for limestone, a carbonate, you would want to take
a small amount of your gravel out of the tank, dry it,
and then grind it so you expose fresh surfaces of
the grains. Right now, after all those years in the
tank, they have developed a "rind" of weathering
around each grain. Once you have the fresh gravel,
put some vinegar on the material. If it fizzes, that
is the CO2 escaping and there is limestone, or
another carbonate in the gravel and you have found
your culprit.

The KH can be raised by simply adding regular baking soda
to the tank. It will affect only the KH, and will buffer
the pH.

Frankly, I would not worry about the pH of 6.8. Most folks
who house tetras in their tanks would do nearly anything for
that and water as high your current 7.6 is not all that bad.
The biggest, most important thing, is to have the pH stable
and prevent stressing the fish. Fish that have been in that
tank have grown quite accustomed to that water and these
changes you are making could really stress them.
Do go slowly.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 28-Apr-2005 18:43

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hello All&lt;img src='/images/forums/wave.gif' border=0&gt; I've had a 35 gallon tank for some 30 years but confess I've never paid much attention to water chemistry . Fortunately, for the most part, I'v been lucky with my fish. However, I realize now that many of them could have lived much, much longer and since I want to upgrade to a larger tank, I'm committed to being a "reformed" and hopefully, better, fishkeeper.&lt;br&gt;I'm tring to re-establish better water parameters on my tank and just want to make sure I'm on the right track.&lt;br&gt;I'm using Mardel 5-1 test strips....&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My tap water is as follows (I'm on an artesian well, so no chlorine etc.)&lt;br&gt;Nitrates 30 ppm&lt;br&gt;Nitrites 0 ppm&lt;br&gt;GH 120 ppm&lt;br&gt;KH 80 ppm&lt;br&gt;PH 6.8&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My tank results before attempting any changes (please don't yell at me &lt;img src='/images/forums/tear.gif' border=0&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Nitrates - 200&lt;br&gt;Nitrites - 0&lt;br&gt;GH - 425&lt;br&gt;KH - 0&lt;br&gt;PH - 6.8&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If I'm understanding the chemistry basics, I can't trust my PH readings because my KH is non-existant? I went to the nearest decent LFS, which unfortunately is an hour's drive each way, but I think they sold me something inappropriate (called Equilibrium). My understanding of this product is that it would raise my GH, not my KH????&lt;br&gt;Unable to return to the fish store for at least a week, I've started water changes every 48 hours with the addition of a bit of baking soda (~ 1/8 tsp. to 6 gallons).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;After 2 water changes, my tanks now reads...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Nitrates down to 80 ppm&lt;br&gt;Nitrite still at 0&lt;br&gt;GH down to 250&lt;br&gt;KH up to 40&lt;br&gt;PH now reading 7.0&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Currently there are only 2 popsicle tetras and a pleco in the tank (all several years old) and they seem to be taking the changes well. I don't want to add any new fish until I've got this under control. I think I'm on the right track??? Is there anything else I can do??? Any advice greatly appreciated.

No shells, except some from deceased snails. I really am not sure what my gravel is composed of - it was gleaned from our beach. Much of our rock up here is granite so I'm assuming the gravel is mostly that...to my eye it looks mostly granite &amp; quartz. There might be some limestone, but short of taking it to a geologist and having it analyed...
I don't want to raise my PH that high... And I'd prefer a community tank with softer water. How else am I to get my buffering capacity up??? The few fish seem to be taking the changes ok - do not appear stressed at all.

Baking soda will not raise the GH.

Are there any shells mixed in with your gravel? Any limestone? They both raise the GH.

Changing that much water, that fast, isn't really good for the fish. I'd slow down a bit.

Also, as you add more and more baking soda, the water will eventually stabilize at a pH of 8.4



Last edited by crazy4plants at 28-Apr-2005 02:41

Well, I've done 5 water changes since the 18th - ~20% each, with ~1/8 tsp baking soda added to my tap water.
Most of my readings have only changed ever so slightly.

Nitrate - now SLIGHTLY less than 80 ppm
Nitite - still 0
Total Hardness - still at 250
KH - now 100ppm ? (guessing - its not 80, but not 120
PH - now reads 7.6

My GH is not coming down. My buffering IS changing for the better, but VERY slowly. Nitrates still too high. Not sure why - I've gravel vac'd every change and with all the water changes I'd of thought it'd be a lot lower by now. Yesterday I added 3 plants (none before).

Should I try adding some RO water with bakin soda instead of my tap water? Will this help my GH come down? Or is it the baking soda itself which is keeping the GH up?

yes...the main tank will provide existing bacteria to your hospital tank..it will cycle faster...it would be nice to have commercial culture as well (if you want), but, in your situation, i dont think so...just use what you have.

Thanks everyone. As I said, readings after 2nd water change in 48 hours, with added baking soda, did seem to show my KH doing up and my GH going down. Just nervous about using a "home-made" product. But I honestly couldn't see the point of using that Equilibrium if it might raise my GH as well. At 425 to start with, the last thing I need is harder water??? I'm going to do another change today. I also set up a hospital tank yesterday. If I add water from my main tank, will it cycle faster because of the bacteria in the water or should I buy commercial bacterial additive?

Good for you in wanting to do the right thing for your tank and fishes. Also just wanted to say...Welcome to FP...you'll find alot of great info and alot of helpful people.

Equilibrium is designed to add nutrients for plants to DI water. It will raise both the GH and KH, but because your pH is less than 7.0 it will raise the KH more slowly. Not what you want!

You said your tap water kH is 80 ppm and your tank kH is 0 ppm?

And your tank GH is 425 ppm?

Normally, unless you use DI water, GH and KH move together because a lot of chemicals (include calcium carbonate in limestone) raise both the KH and the GH. The high GH makes sense to me, because as water evaporates, the concentration of these minerals should go up. But, the KH should go up as well.

I would test the KH on the aquarium water again. If it really is that low, then adding baking soda with water changes a great way to raise it. The water changes should also lower your GH a bit.

Carl

Long term solution to stabilize your pH and to put KH in your system is what you should look for...increasing hardness is normally fairly easy. Adding decor to the tank which will gradually leach hardening salts (such as limestone rock) is one way. Hardening materials such as coral gravel could also be added to a canister filter. There are also commercially available hardening salts - these are often used for tanks containing cichlids from the African rift lakes, which are hard and alkaline.