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Ok....I know about what happens during the whole process. I guess Im just getting confused or losing my mind. Heres the problem.
Dont even know how to start.
Ok....My tank Im most concerned about had no ammo yesterday. Nitri was 0.25-0.50. Nitra was 40-80 or so Im guessing. I cant read my color cards as the colors are so close together. I did a small water change last night and just now I tested my water and the ammo was 0.25-50. Nitri was 0.25-50 and nitrate was 40 or up.

Ive lost two fish this weekend. These fish were Cherry Barbs. Ive havent been able to get them to eat since I got them. I bought the first ones on the 24th. The fish hide a lot but they seemed fine. My biggest, most active female was completely find one day and dead the next. I just found a dead male who has been completely fine all day and since I got him on the 24th. Then he just konked out.
Is it my water? How do I fix this? I have ammo lock/dechlor all in one that I add to the fresh water I put in.

Ive added a small amount of cycle.
I bought these fish for helping out a mini cycle but now I really like them and want them to be ok.

I guess Im just confused about how you can have ammo, nitri and nitra all at the same time. Im confused to about how often to do water changes. I know you should do it every day if you have ammo so that it will make the ammo less harmful. But what about the nitri?

I thought after doing this for 3 years that I had the whole process and water chnages figuered out. Im just confused. I could write the process down for someone and tell them about it but after testing I just get confused after seeing the readings.

I thought if fish were bothered by ammo or other things, youd see signs or something. These fish seemed absolutely fine and then.....death!

They still wont eat and Im worried the fish may have died from starvation eventhough I know they can go weeks without food.
:#(:#(

Hi,
First a review...
The fish produce urea and other waste products that along
with decaying plant leaves, and any excess foods that will
decay. Three types of bacteria occur, one after the other
that eat the waste products, and produce waste products
of their own.

Ammonia is toxic to fish. Much like a very bad diaper
rash, the ammonia can burn gills, and even affect the
mucus coating on the bodies of the fish. As the ammonia
develops, a bacteria that "eats" the ammonia does as well.
First the ammmonia, and then the bacteria a few days later
blooms. This bacteria takes in the ammonia strips the
molecules and puts out as its waste product, nitrites.
A few days after the nitrites appear, the bacteria that
thrives on nitrites appears and starts consuming the
nitrites. It's waste product is nitrates. Nitrates are
held in check by live plants, and by regular water changes
of say 10-20% of the tanks capacity.
The whole process is called the "Nitrogen Cycle" of the
tank and can take a few weeks for the whole thing to
reach the point where you can add fish.

You can cycle the tank using household ammonia, or add
some hardy fish to the new tank, or there are chemicals
such as "Cycle" that is actually bacteria in solution,
that you pour into the tank and add fish. Each way has
its proponents and detractors. The choice is yours.

With an ammonia reading of "0" and nitrite and nitrate
readings as high as they are, your tank is still cycling.
As I mentioned earlier, Ammonia is toxic. So too are
nitrites.

I don't believe I would have chosen Cherry Barbs to be
my starter fish. I don't think that they are hardy
enough to handle the large swings in readings that cycling
tanks go through. The problem is that if you do water
changes of any large amounts, or too frequently, then
you simply dilute the "soup" and delay the time it takes
for the tank to cycle. Generally speaking the nitrite
reading should climb to about a 10 and then start to drop.
At the same time the nitrate readings should begin to
register and start to climb as the nitrite readings peak
and then fall off to "0" as ammonia is now.
Nitrate readings in a tank with few to no plants should
be nearly zero, and are kept there by frequent, regular,
water changes of 10-20% of the tank capacity.
For instance, with a 20G tank, 10% would be 2 gallons
removed and replaced.

I believe the high nitrite and even higher nitrate readings
are the cause of your barbs dying.

Hope this helps...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Ok...First thanks. I knew most of that. Where I get confused is during the coverting times. Let me see if I have it.
Ammo starts and multiplies. Nitrite start to grow to kill the ammo. BUT eventhough nitri is growing and being read a most likely a low level, the ammo is still there. The more nitri grows, the more ammo dies so to speak. Meaning ammo readings drop and nitri readings rise. Correct??? Then the same with the nitri and nitra.

Then I get confused again as to how ammonia comes into the tank AFTER the tank has fully cycled. Do you just do water changes to keep it from returning? If nitri kills ammo, ammo is converted to nitri and you cant have nitrates until you have nitrites then how can you have ammo and nitrAtes?

Hi,
You Got IT! You are right. When you start a tank off
from scratch, the accumulated fish uria and other waste
products accumulate, till the ammonia eating bacteria
start to grow and then thrive. So the ammonia readings
would start to rise and then as the benificial bacteria
come into being, and start to thrive on the ammonia,
the ammonia readings will start to fall as the nitrite
readings start to rise.

If you have ever seen a Sine Wave, the top half of a wave
is a pretty good "picture" of what is going on in the tank.

As far as continuing.. Once all the colonies are
established, the fish are still eliminating waste, and
plant leaves are still dying, and some excess food is
still accumulating, so all three colonies exist and
continue to eliminate the ammonia (about as fast as it
occurs)and the nitrites are still there but being
changed to nitrates about as fast as it occurs.

Everything reaches equilibrium. UNTIL...you change
something, such as add a large fish, or a bunch of small
fish.

Then the tank undergoes a very small cycle as the
bacterial colonies increase in size to use up the larger
amounts of waste, nitrites, etc.

You do have to watch the nitrate level. Over 50 it can
start to cause harm and over 100 it can be a real
problem. Regular water changes of 10 20% each week along
with some careful vacuuming can control it. Or, live
plants will help control the nitrates in the tank.
If you have lots of plants, you may actually have to add
nitrate! With live plants you want to keep the nitrate
reading around 10, otherwise, you can have it read lower.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 31-Oct-2005 09:56

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks so much for your time Frank!
Only one more question. How often do you do a gravel vac, filter change, filter rinse in throw away tank water, rinse of filter cartridge?

Ok, so since my cycle isnt quite complete, I guess Im in sort of a mini cycle, I shouldnt put in any more fish because it will make the ammonia just go up and throw it all off. I just want to put more barbs in, nothing else. Im set on fish right now.

Hi,
You would want to do the water change each week, and
at the same time clean a quarter of the unplanted part
of the tank. Each week clean a different quarter.

I don't use an external filter only Under Gravel Filter
(UGF) and I never have to "clean" it. I do the quarterly
vacuuming and push the head of the Python Syphon down
through the gravel to the filter plates.

With the HOBs and the Canisters, it depends upon the
fish load and how liberal you are with feeding. The more
the fish, and the heavier the feeding the more frequently
you should clean the filters. The sponges you can merely
rinse out in a bucket of old tank water and place them
back into the filter. They hardly ever go bad ... when
they do, they will start to fall apart, and leave gaps
between the walls that allows water to pass around them
instead of going through them. Then its time to replace
them. The carbon (in your case) could be thrown away every
week till your water clears up.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

thankssss!

Ok. I just tested my water in another tank. The ammo is 100. Nitrite was a very perfect 0. Nitrate was about 10-20.
I dont get how you can have ammo AND nitrates. If ammo turns to nitri and nitri turns to nitra, how can I have ammo and nitrates without the middleman, the nitri????

:%):%):%)

Last edited by ladiejl at 01-Nov-2005 02:27

Hi,
Just out of curosity... Are you using something like
"Ammo Lock" in your tank? If so it alters the structure
of ammonia and gives false highs to ammonia tests.

I would also question the quality of the reagents that
you are using in your tests. Take a water sample to your
LFS and ask them to check it. Generally speaking, as
consumers, we purchase a test kit off the shelf (stores
ALWAYS put the oldest of anything to the front where we
grab them) take it home and use it till the stuff runs out.

LFSs do so many tests in a day that their kits are nearly
always fresh and if the person doing the test knows what
they are doing, they are frequently more accurate.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Yes. Im using ammonia, chlorine eliminator. I knew that. It had just slipped my mind!