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Hi everyone

My tank has been cycling since 27 Dec./05. A few days ago nitrItes started showing up and went as high as 1 ppm. No amonia and no nitrAtes. Today, the readings are:
0 amonia
0 nitrItes
0 nitrAtes
So, my question is, do nitrAtes have to appear before I can assume that my tank has cycled? I do have more live than fake plants if that makes a difference. I have done no water changes or vacuuming for at least 3 weeks.

Thanks for your help!


*Mitch*

What method are you using to cycle the tank? Do you have fish or are you doing fishlees by adding ammonia or something to create ammonia?

I would think that, either way, you should have nitrates by now. The 0 ammonia and nitrite are good, but with no live plants there should be SOME nitrates as the end product of the cycle.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

test again, sometimes you can get false readings and a test done within minutes of another can give completely different readings. My guess is that you have nitrates by now, they may not be showing up.

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Back in the saddle!

Mitchee,

During the phase that you identified as cycling, did you get any reading? How did you cycle the tank? Did you just recently add more fish?

I have done no water changes or vacuuming for at least 3 weeks.

Why?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi guys

I started off cycling with Zebra Danio's but couldn't take all the deaths so I started adding Cycle to the tank. At the beginning I was only adding two to three fish a week to eventually get to my current load of:
3 danios
2 swordtails
4 guppies
1 balloon molly
2 platys
I haven't added any new fish in over a month. Live plants were added about a month ago. I have read on this forum not to do any vacuuming or water changes while cycling as this will lengthen the process. Only do changes if the fish appear stressed.

Initially, I was only doing amonia tests daily as it was still registering at the .50 to 1.0 range and I only did the nitrIte and nitrAte test on occasion and they always registered 0. As soon as the amonia disappeared last week, I have been doing the nitrIte and nitrAte tests every day. Just did both tests now and both register 0. I did another separate blank nitrAte test (using straight tap water) and both samples register 0.

Today, I'm adding 2 dwarf gouramies.

I have read (not on this site) that nitrAte levels 0 to 5ppms in a freshwater aquarium is the optimum range to achieve. Having said that, is there any cause for concern?


*Mitch*

Hi Mitch,
a couple of suggestions - one - dont add any more
fish at all while the tank is still cycling.
I personally wouldnt take that risk.
If you are reading 000 on all tests, either
your tests are not right, or your tank hasnt even
begun to cycle.
If you had 0 ammonia and 0 nitrItes, you should
definetly have NitrAtes.
I would suggest testing again and giving us the readings.

NitrAtes should ideally kept below 40ppm in a planted
tank, in a heavily planted tank nitrates should be
kept between 30-40 ppm for the plants health.
In an unplanted tank - try for under 20ppm.


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Mitchee,

You might (just might) not get any Nitrate readings because your plants suck it all up. This would of course be only possible when your plant load does not consist of only 2 crypts or the like. So - what and how many live plants are in there and do you add any fertilizers to feed them?

I remember that my 29G never showed nitrates until I added them explicitly to increase the plant health (whole other chapter though as other ferts are needed as well then - and light).

So back to your first post - I think one possibility would be that you were going towards the end of a mini-cycle (cause by the latest fish added before that date) but having the plants it didn't show the nitrates after the nitrites.

The one thing that buffles me is your statement:

started off cycling with Zebra Danio's but couldn't take all the deaths

Does that mean that quite a few of your danios died? They must have been pretty weak to begin with as they are excellent fish to cycle with (with and without added beneficial bacteria).

And to the optimum level of Nitrates in a fully (emphasis on fully) planted tank: I would say that more than 20ppm over a longer period of time is not only potentially harmful to the fish but also doesn't do anything to your plants health either. Again having 20ppm of Nitrates will not be a sufficient fertilizer for plants if other nutrients are missing - instead, algae will love you.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thank you all for your advice and suggestions.
When I started cycling using the danios, I had 6 of them and within 2 days 3 died. At that time, my amonia was hitting the 5 to 6 range. My LFS stated that this was normal and part of the procedure. You had to expect a lot of deaths!!! That's when I went with adding the Cycle to my tank.

I'm beginning to think that probably my nitrAte test quit is the problem. I'm going to purchase another one and see what the results are. I did another water test today, after adding my 2 gouramies yesterday and my amonia, nitrIte and nitrAte register 0. I do not add any ferts to my plants and they are growing quite well. I have 6 live plants and have no idea what they are, my LFS just purchases "aquarium plants" and has no clue what they're getting. I'm also just getting my brown algae under control.

I was going to do a 25% water change and 1/4 deep vacuuming today as there is quite a lot of gunk on the bottom. Good idea or bad???


*Mitch*

25% water change is a good idea

Vacuuming - only do maybe a quarter of the tank now (deep vacuum), another one next time, and so forth. You can skim over the substrate with the vacuum cleaner to get the rough stuff of the ground all over the place.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I did another water test using some dip sticks that I have on hand and, you guessed it, I have nitrAtes registering at 20ppms range! Eventhough the dip sticks are not considered very accurate at least now I now that the other nitrAte test that I was using was a dud. I guess that with this result, I can consider that my tank has completely cycled I realize that I will have to watch the nitrAte level now and in the event it goes beyond the 20ppms, is there anything other than water changes that I should be doing to reduce the level?


*Mitch*

Live plants will eat up nitrAtes.
The more the better!
Congrats on your completed cycle!


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Mitchee,

Well that's good, but this strip (as all strips) might be just as inacurate as the other one, so don't bet your money on having 20ppm of Nitrate.

Now - under the assumption that you do have 20ppm of Nitrate, where do you think that would come from? You don't add any fertilizer for the plants and as such it must be all converted fish poop, plant matter, and/or overfeeding leftovers. You should do a water change very soon. 20ppm of nitrates is pretty much the top level that plants need to grow (in high light and CO2 injected tanks), if - and only if - nutrients are balanced. You currently are asking for algae, it might take a while until it gets hold of your tank, but under these conditions it will.

So_Very_Sneaky - I disagree with your statement of "The more the better!", as it implies that (for example) 100ppm of Nitrate are better than 20ppm, and that is actually deadly.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
Managing nitrates can be a bit "tricky."

Most of what I've read suggests that a nitrate reading of
40 is about as high as you should have. I've also read
that readings of around 10 are good for plants, and now
with the preceding post, the upper "limit" apparently
has been raised to 20.

Somewhere between 40 and 100, you begin the Old Tank
Syndrome (OTS). In this case you have rising nitrate
readings 100+, coupled with falling pH readings, and
rising ammonia readings.

Folks who don't regularly test, "discover" OTS when
they add new fish to a tank of what seems to be perfectly
healthy fish, only to have all or most of them die within
a few days/weeks of adding them. They can't figure out
what has happened as the fish in the tank are fine, and
a couple of the new ones appear fine. "Perhaps the dead
ones were already sick or weak or dying when I bought them"
is frequently their thinking.
Actually they were not acclimated correctly and the extreme
nitrates coupled with the pH is what did them in. Only
the most hardy survived, and they too could die, only a
little later (months, instead of days or weeks).

Regular water changes and vacuuming the gravel, will stop
OTS from occurring. Once you have it, you need to to some
real tank maintenance.

This is a site that goes into detail about OTS:
http://www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html

Keep control of the end product of the Nitrogen Cycle...
Clean your tank, change a portion of your water...
Regularly.

Specifically, in a new tank the readings depend upon lots
of variables.

Your test kit could be old. Heat, light, and moisture, all
affect test strips and some of the liquid reagents.
If you are in doubt about your readings, take a fresh
sample of water to your LFS and ask them to test it. If
your readings match or nearly match then yours are probably
correct.

The quantity of fish, and the size/type of fish, can
influence the rate at which a tank will cycle and the
readings. Large fish, fish of the carp family, and some
live bearers eliminate more waste than say a small group
of tetras.

Plants also influence the readings. As the plants grow
they use the nitrates to obtain other nutrients and break
down the nitrates. Should you have a small quantity of
fish, for a specific size tank, coupled with live
plants, then you may never see the peak/decline
of ammonia, followed by a peak/decline of nitrite
followed by a peak of nitrate.
Your nitrates could be used by the plants as soon as the
bacteria creates it and your readings would then be zero.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thank you so much Frank and Little Fish for your invaluable advice. Much appreciated!

Earlier this morning, I did my first vacuuming and water change in almost a month. The amount of gunk that was being syphoned out was incredible! All in all, I probably did more than the 25% water change that is recommended, more like 35%, but I did stick to just deep vacuuming 25% of the tank and a surface skim to the rest. My brown algae is mostly gone now and the substrate is once again almost white as opposed to rust I did a water test just a few minutes ago and amonia and nitrIte are at 0. I still had to use my test stip for the nitrAte and it also registers at 0. I'll be getting a better test kit for that soon!

Now, it's a matter of keeping a good maintenance schedule, keeping tabs on my water parameters and when in doubt, ask


*Mitch*

Now, it's a matter of keeping a good maintenance schedule, keeping tabs on my water parameters and when in doubt, ask

You got it

Don't worry about doing a 35% water change if all you take out is water and restrict your deep gravel vacuuming as described. I always change 50% of the tank water, every week, in all tanks (high tech or not).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ingo,

So_Very_Sneaky - I disagree with your statement of "The more the better!", as it implies that (for example) 100ppm of Nitrate are better than 20ppm, and that is actually deadly.

No No No.
I said "Live Plants will eat up NitrAtes.
The More the Better"
...the more Live Plants the Better.
I have heard of many hobbyists actually keeping
their NitrAtes added up to about 30ppm
in a heavily planted c02 tank.
I personally try to keep mine under 20ppm,
not very hard when you have many live plants.


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the more Live Plants the Better

My mistake, sorry for the misunderstanding So_Very_Sneaky

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club