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I have read so many posts & articles on water quality that I am thouroughly confused! I have a 55 gal. set up for about 2 mo. now. The fish I have in there are mostly schooling fish & of course we know they "originally" came from softer water. I have a PH test kit & just tested my tank water. It reads, as far as I can tell by the colored graph, about 7.6.

As soon as finances & circumstances allow I will go to walmart & get all the other kits. I live in a small town & that is our LFS. Take a water sample to them & have them test it? I don't think so!? And their water is hard also. If I need to soften my water please don't recommend RO water or jugs of distilled water, as we are talking about a 55 gal. here & weekly water changes would get expensive as well as a hassle. It's already a hassle & that's why I was wanting to get a python. But that would take water directly from my faucet, which is hard well water. But that is what I'm doing now anyway.Therefore if you guys want me to have softer water I would have to add PH down or Bulleyes 7.0, neutral pH regulator, at each water change. That's fine with me.

But as I was scanning some older posts I ran across one that stated the exact same thing that I have read before! A difference of opinion! If I am allowed I will quote part of that post below. My question is: Which school of thought should I go by? The one that says leave the PH alone or the one that says adjust that PH! I do not care to breed any of the tanks inhabitants. Quote below:

As always, the question is, "Why do you want to adjust your water parameters?" The oft repeated answer is, "The fish need soft/acidic/pink/fizzy water according to the LFS/posts on this board/yomama/ouija board."
In general, the fish that you will purchase are one to ten generations removed from their natural habitat. If you modify your water parameters to match the nonsense (facts) that you have heard/read, you are ignoring two basic truths. The first is that you should attempt to duplicate the environment to that environment that the fish are accustomed to whether it be in a hobbyist's tank in Chicago or the LFS. The second truth is that you should acclimate your fish to the environment that you are able to provide with the least amount of alchemy.
Measure your tap water parameters after heating and aerating the water for at least 24 hours. These parameters are your base water parameters. The measurements should include ph, GH, KH, Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrites and total hardness in microsiemens.
Against these parameters, you should compare the same parameters from the LFS or hobbyist that you purchase/acquire your fish. The difference in parameters should give you an idea of the amount of time to acclimate your new purchase/acquisitions.
My personal position is that water parameters should only be modified to meet the breeding needs of the fish. By adopting that stance, you need to treat a much smaller volume of water for a very finite period of time.

I think pH is much less important than people like to say it is. I suspect that it is considered as a guideline because it's connected to other parameters, most importantly pollutant levels. A sudden dip in pH could indicate an ammonia spike. However, many folks don't know this, and attach too much value to pH without understanding why. If you can keep your water clean and the parameters fairly stable, you will not have a problem with most fish.

"In general, the fish that you will purchase are one to ten generations removed from their natural habitat. If you modify your water parameters to match the nonsense (facts) that you have heard/read, you are ignoring two basic truths. The first is that you should attempt to duplicate the environment to that environment that the fish are accustomed to whether it be in a hobbyist's tank in Chicago or the LFS."

I'm not sure I agree with this part of the quoted post, though the rest is sound advice. Though most freshwater aquarium fish were captive bred, I don't feel that a few generations of living in different water will change a fish species's preference for the water of their natural habitat. I haven't seen any evidence either way, so I'm just going with my gut. Since freshwater fish are generally very adaptable, it's pretty much a moot point.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Thanks for the reply sirbooks. If I understand you right, you are saying my high PH is alright as long as I have clean water & the other water tests come out with low no's.?

I really don't want my fish to be just alright. I want what is best for the fish. What water will make them happier & more comfortable & live a longer & healthier life? I heard PH changes are really bad for fish & that if I get to messing with it & it keeps fluctuating, than I am better off just leaving it alone. This makes sense to me. If this was your tank, would you attempt to lower the PH & try to keep it stable or just keep filling it with the well water & let it stay hard?

And thanks for not telling me to make it into a cichlid tank to match my water.

Hi Fish Patty,

I'm no fish expert in any way....but I did read somewhere that if you have hard water & if you do not want to install an RO then you may want to consider collecting rain water that has run through peat moss. The water may be tinted an amber brown but it will become acidic & very soft.

Directions state:

Collect rain water from a clean, uncontaminated source in a glass container. Cover the water surface w/a layer of horticultural peat bout 3inches thick. The peat will float on surface at first but about 3weeks it will fall to the bottom. Tinting water but leaving acidic & soft water behind. You can use this water to adjust the hardness of your current tank.

Good luck!

I had considered this but we installed the RO instead.

PH does not matter unless you are breeding fish or keeping very sensitive fish. Very very few fish stores soften their water so your fish have already been acclimated and are living in higher ph water. Unless you see cause for concern based on how your fish are acting there is no reason to lower the ph. 7.6 isn't even that high. Try 8.6 and I still rarely have trouble keeping any fish. Pretty much all fish sold in stores will acclimate to a ph around 8.0 or lower without issue. Some just take longer to acclimate than others depending on what water they've been living in.

If you do have a reason to lower ph the best way to soften water is RO or distilled and it's not that expensive for a 55g. Even for my 90g it only cost me a couple bucks a month. Most grocery stores in the US are installing RO machines that give refills for $.25/g. Heck even the little grocery store in my town of less than 3000 had one and this town has one in both walmart and hyvee. Any lfs that sells saltwater will generally also sell RO for that price. Diluting the water first is the only good way to lower the ph in my opinion. If you can't do that then your better off not messing with it at all and just avoid buying sensitive wild caught fish online or from stores that aren't local to you.

PH down will cause you many headaches and probably cost you some fish. It does not keep the ph low. Within 24hours your ph will bounce right back up eventually killing your fish. I would never recommend it unless you want some dead fish and using RO water would probably be cheaper than having to replace your fish. Neutral regulator isn't too bad and can be used effectively but only if you take very frequent ph measurements and I would setup an empty test tank of around 10gallons until you know how much to use for your tapwater. All of seachem's ph regulators interact in complicated ways and it cannot be predicted how much is required for your tapwater. They also say when using their products to change the ph that the acids produced normally in any tank with fish with give a different ph than if you leave a bucket with only water in it sitting around. Premixing is hit or miss and you usually have to prepare the water right before you do a water change.

Thanks for the advice Jasmine. Yeah, I read about the rain water also & the use of peat moss, .......in the filter,....... in the tank .......& using the water from another soaking peat moss bucket as you described. (Take your pick)

" I just wanted to look at some pretty fish!"

What is it that one quote says? Before this is over I will have become a fish vet, a water chemist & an underwater gardner?? Something to that effect.

I have a small corner of the living room for my tank. It is becoming crowded, & I've run out of sockets on my plug strip. I may need another filter in addition to the one I have. And now I am confronted with an RO unit or a bucket of peat moss water.

Is the store bought stuff really bad for fish? Does anybody know about this? As I stated earlier Jasmine.......... I'm not sure I should be tinking with the pH as that may be more harmfull to the fish than staying in my hard water? But if I did use peat moss water I could just start out using a little till I got the pH down & then a little more at each water change & then maybe use a python at the same time? But this sounds like a lot of messing with the pH trying different amounts of peat moss water at each water change till I find the right amount to add each time? Which brings us back to the title of this post.......... the pH debate!

I have skimmed articles on the RO but don't remember where they were or much about them? Are these large contraptions & are they expensive? I suppose I should at least find out about one before I cross it off my list. Or a couple more people could post in & tell me I'm making too big of a deal out of this & I should just leave my water alone?!

The RO my husband & I put in we brought for drinking due to the hardness & taste of our water....(it was realllly bad). With the RO we also added a water softener, which improved the quality altogether...My fish were fortunate to reap the rewards.....

However the complete system ran us somewhere around $2500.00. But this system was more expensive than in our last house which cost us $1800.00, since we are now closer to Chicago.

I do beleive that the quality of the water has had a profound inpact on the health of my fish & my family too. If the RO is something within your budget I would seriously consider this as an option. Our water system is by ECOwater & they have many options you can consider.

Thanks Sham! You were posting while I was but your's made it in first. I'm a slow typist.
Ok! One more vote saying I can leave my water alone! I believe sirbooks also said I could......... or more or less said it didn't matter.

Is RO the same as distilled water? I mean if I buy a jug of distilled water at the store, am I buying RO water?

Well.......... the graph in my kit only goes up to 7.6, but the color looked close to mine. So I can leave my water alone.......... at least for now. Maybe in the future when I have an established tank with no more disease or clouded water from medicine & everything is going smoothly ( that will happen some day, right?) then I might consider a pH lowering or even plants. I best just work on keeping the fish alive & the water clean for right now. And the water parameters good. (when I get test kits) Aren't we newbie's just so much fun?! I sure do appreciate the people here though. With everybody's comments & advice I intend to have a "proper" aquarium some day. I'm sure you guys don't get thanked enough! I have noticed that some posts just seem to end in midstream? Maybe they worked it out in chat or private messaging with you guys, or started a new thread? On the other hand I imagine some have left you hanging......... not continuing the post or ever letting you know how things worked out or didn't. I thank you all now for your comments & advice! And thanks Sham for all the info.!

Wow Jasmine! Thanks for the info., but NO that is not within our budget! My budget will allow me to go to walmart for a couple jugs of distilled water. (wink) (They need a winky face on here)

Actually our well water here is very good! No bad taste or anyhing. It might even be good for us. I heard if you have good well water it is still loaded with all the natural minerals that are in it from the underground stream or lake, or whatever is under there? I know little about wells, except that you don't want your well pump to go out. And I do know they can get contaminated from different sources. But I think ours is good.......... was tested a few years ago.

Soooooo lets forget the RO system. With Shams last post I think I'm about ready to forget the whole pH thing. The pH voting so far seems to be in favor of leaving the pH alone, at least for a beginner like me. But I'm glad your water system is working out for you guys......... & your fish!

Sorry about all the space after my post. I've tried to correct it but apparently don't know how.

"I believe sirbooks also said I could......... or more or less said it didn't matter."

Yep, no need to screw around with it. I don't alter any of my water parameters outside of dechlorinator and water changes. For general purposes, it's more trouble than it's worth.

By the way, we do have a wink smiley- just type ; ) without the space.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Thanks sirbooks! You talked me into into it, at least for now. You knew that's what I wanted to hear anyway.

Well, apparently I have been doing the wink all along! I guess it was just habit from writing letters........ I knew the characters to put in & have been putting them in my posts all this time & they have been coming out as winky faces. I was just reviewing my "old" posts & they have winky faces. Guess I just never really noticed or it didn't sink in as to what I was doing.

Thanks to whoever fixed all my empty spaces. Or as someone said maybe the system has to have time to "cycle" before the changes you make actually take effect.

K', I'm no chemist but here goes. First of all pH is a measure of acidity not hardness. kH measures hardness. I'm not sure I understand all that too much, but here's what I know. The fish in your tank are adaptable and have become acclimated to the water in your tank. Changing the parameters would probably only stress them. Do not necessarily believe those info cards at walmart or any other lfs, many of them contain inaccurate information. If your fish are happy and healthy let them be. Also, CONSTANT parameters are more important than what "the book" says are the right parameters. I may catch some flack for that but so be it, keeping your temp and pH constant are arguably some of the most important things you can do.

Hi,
If you have a well, then this is a site you should be
familiar with: http://www.wellowner.org/

Read through the various parts, such as the maintenance,
and water quality issues. Your well should be tested,
at least yearly, depending upon where you are located
and what level (aquifer) you are drawing water from.

I've got one. "We" grow hay, and cattle where we live
(inside the Rocky Mountains) and test annually
for potability.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hey Frank...

Do you have any problems with raising fish using well water? My Father In Law, he raises fancytail Guppies & he is now moving to a new home that has well water where as before he had city water. I told him he needs to be careful regarding the stress of his fish & the change in the type of water his fish will be in. Any advice for him & his fish?

Thanks Divertran............. another vote to leave my water alone!

Wow Frank......... so far I have learned about stamp collecting & "Evertyhing you ever wanted to know about water wells!."

"All I wanted to do was look at some pretty fish!" Oh........... this is too funny!

But apparently it's serious also. I'm in too far to back away now, so will just dig in my heels & plow forward!

I had no more problems with well water than tapwater. It was slightly better since I didn't have to worry about chlorine but slightly harder occasionally reaching a ph near 9 in dry weather. A small RO unit capable of producing enough water for a moderately sized tank(4' or smaller) can be found for around $50-$100 depending how pure of water you want out of it. Many marine aquarists recommend aqua safe units sold on ebay for around $80-$200 depending on the size of the unit and attachments. I have a 100gpd system but am not allowed by the owner to set it up in this apartment. Home RO units have their downsides. They constantly put out a small amount of waste water and they are very slow to make pure water. It can take a half hour to fill a 5g bucket of water.

RO and distilled are not the same but equivalent. Distilled is made by boiling the water and then collecting the steam. A good distilling system which boils the water many times(and does not use metal in the system) can produce 99% pure h20 with all the contaminants left behind. RO is created by forcing water over a very fine membrane. Only the h20 molecules are the right size to fit through and so the resulting water is also 99% pure. RO is generally cheaper because stores can setup their own RO system allowing you to refill by the gallon. We have six 3 gallon containers we refill every few months since I also have a saltwater tank which tapwater generally wreaks havoc in marine setups. RO and distilled are pure water and so dilute your carbonate hardness and general hardness along with having a ph of 6.8. This results in less buffering of the water and a lower ph. X amount of ro/distilled to x amount of tap will always give you the same ph, kh, and gh so long as your tapwater does not change.

Peat moss can achieve a low ph but it has it's problems. It exchanges the minerals/buffers in the water for tannic acid. Tannic acid is brown. You end up with tea colored water if you use a little peat and black water if you use alot. The higher the kh the more peat you need so the blacker the resulting water. Also if you aren't careful peat can potentially lower your ph to 4-5. X amount of peat does not always equal the same ph since some peat is more concentrated and 1 batch to the next is not 100% equal in it's ability to interact with the water. Frequent testing is again required. Chemical filtration can be used to remove the color but carbon is generally not strong enough. I had 2 penguin filters packed with high quality carbon and it only kept my water clear enough to see the outline of the fish. It also only lowered my 8.6ph water down to 8.2. That is why I suggest diluting your water first. If your starting ph and kh are low then you need a small amount of peat. It's cheaper, it's easier, it's more stable, and your tank won't be black. Currently I do slightly soften my using first 1g of ro to 2g of tap to dilute it and then a bag of concentrated peat granules in the filter. To conteract the peat I have a bag of purigen which is much stronger chemical filtration than carbon.

Hi Jasmine,
Sham pretty much covered the topic. Simply, slowly,
acclimate your fish to the new water. Lots of ways to
do it. The "drip method" where you allow the new water to
"drip" into a bag containing the fish (in the old water).

I've known some that take large quantities of "tap water"
and fill a 10 or 15 or 20G tank with tap water, and then
do 10% water changes a week using the well water as the
replacement water & Vice Versa if moving from a well
source to the city tap. This, is the one I'd feel more
comfortable with. To me the first is excellent for new
fish from an LFS into your tank, but not very satisfactory
for changing from tap to well.

Patty... You are getting quite an education!
But think of the fun! Honestly, don't get bogged down.
ASK!!!
Honestly, all the advice has been good, however, if your
water truly is 7.6pH, I don't think I'd worry about it and
simply enjoy the fish. As was mentioned, unless these are
fish fresh from the wild, they have been raised in huge
outdoor fish "farms" and they simply use local spring/well/
stream, water. They would live and thrive in your water
just fine. Now, if you wanted to breed them, you might have
to "induce" then into the mood, by a large water change
of RO or Distilled water, or add a bunch of peat moss to
some water on the side and add it. Something to simulate
a change in the season duplicating the monsoon season where
the stream or pond (water chemistry) that they, as a
species are used to, suddenly is diluted by a flood or
massive rainfall. In other words, you fake them out by
diluting the water and holding it there for a week or two
and then with water changes return it to the normal, higher
pH & hardness.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Wow Sham ............ Chemistry class 101!

I don't mean to change the subject guys........... but I just discovered I have a real problem right now. We went somewhere last night & had the money to stop by & pick up all the water tests that I needed. They were the ones with a strip with the pads on the strip. All my readings were as far as they could go to the right........ the worst........danger level!

Awhile back I put melafix in my tank everyday for a week like it said, for an angel fish, & left the filter off but had a strong airstone going in it. When a week was up I did a 25% water change like it said & got the filter going again & even cleaned it.

A few weeks ago I put sea salt in the tank cause I read that I should do that. I don't believe it now though that I should have it in there.

Anyway......... the tank got really cloudy with the filter not going, but mostly cleared up after I got it going again & did a partial water change. Been days now & not really very clear. Today I decided I should do a 50% water change after my readings last night, so I upset all the "decorations" trying to get all the crud out of there that I could. Yes, I use the water vacuum on the gravel at every water change.

The day after tomorrow I thought I should do another 50% water change & then again the day after that another 50% water change & then the next day take the tests again & see what they say.

Is this not the right thing to do? Please, I trust what you guys say, I'm taking advice here! What should I do to get my tank to have good water quality now?? My fish seem to be fine though......... no visable signs of stress........... acting normal. Oh........ the only reading that was not maxed out was the ammonia. It seemed to be in the middle of the chart if I remember right.

You were posting while I was Frank. Ok.......... looks Iike I'm ready to have fun now!

Are you with me on this Frank! Let's go! Awaiting advice!