FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Anyone still following this post? I wasn't just singling out Frank.............. I was just cuttin' up with him. I would like advice from anyone that is in the know on what to do about my situation. The water looks pretty decent now........ but I don't know what to do about those bad readings?

Test strips are not the least bit accurate. Good for telling if there is ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate but as for numbers they are pretty worthless. Mine always tells me my ph or hardness is even higher than it is and the nitrates are always over 50ppm when I know all my tanks are under 20. A good liquid kit is a much better choice.

You should not turn the filter completely off when medicating for various reasons. You do need to remove the carbon and for some filters you have to cut the cartridge to do that. Skip the salt. There are several good posts in general about why and if you scroll down to Calilasseia post in this thread http://fishprofiles.com/files/threads/31340.1.htm?7#there's a very good explanation.

Since the test kit does say there is some ammonia even if the numbers aren't accurate I would just go ahead and do a 25% water change daily, don't change the filter cartridge, and don't gravel vac too much untill you arent testing any ammonia or nitrites. The bacteria that changes ammonia and nitrites to nitrates lives on the filter cartridge and in the gravel. Everytime you clean you get rid of some of that bacteria so if the tank isn't cycled it will only get worse instead of better by cleaning everything. You can rinse cartridges in tank water and normally in a cycled tank you vac around 1/4th of the gravel at a time when doing water changes every 1-2weeks.

ok............ wasn't sure about the readings, so I just took them again. This time I tested our well water BEFORE it went into the tank. It reads:

ammonia 3.0=harmful
nitrate 0
nitrite 0
hardness 300
alkalinity 300
ph 8.4

tank water reads:

ammonia 6.0=danger
nitrate 200
nitrite 1.0
hardness 300
alkalinity 300
ph 8.4

Thanks Sham! You were posting while I was. I just read yours. Any different advice after reading my last post with those horrible no's.?

Yes, I know about that last paragraph you were explaining, not to clean too good, but after my horrible readings last night I thought I needed to clean better.

Well, I don't know what to do about the high ammonia reading for our "fresh" well water. If it is harmfull for fish, is it harmfull to us?!

I saw something at the store while we were there for removing ammonia from your tank water. Should I be using that in my tank now, since I am apparently "putting" ammonia into the water at every water change!

And on the subject of salt..........Since we shouldn't use it then why in the world is it on the shelf at walmart labled for freshwater fish & it goes into this description of how we need it for the health of our fish,......... electrolytes, gill function, etc.!? It's made by API.

Hi,
First, I would get my well tested for potability and
mention to the person doing the test that you found
ammonia in your water. Do that for your sake.

As far as salt is concerned - As Sham said, read that link
to the article that Calilasseia wrote. Years ago salt was
suggested as a way to prevent outbreaks of a parasite
called Ich (short for a long Latin name). When you add
salt to the water of a fresh water fish, it stresses them
and they increase their metabolism and that increases the
production of the slime coating. The idea was that if
the fish produced slime, fast enough, that the parasite
would be "washed off" the fish before it could anchor
itself to the fish, and without a host, the parasite would
die. Many fish have never been exposed to salt and in some
it could be toxic, in others such as Mollies, it is
absolutely essential for their good health.

One of the problems with using salt is that folks either
do not realize, or do not know, that salt does not
evaporate from the tank as water does. So, if you add salt
to a tank the water evaporates, and you add another gallon
of water to top it off and add salt too, you are actually
slowly increasing the salinity of the water and could
kill the fish.

With todays medications, there is no reason to use salt
with most freshwater fish.
As far as the strips are concerned, they are never
accurate, and are affected by old age, and exposure to
heat, light, and moisture. The test kits that use liquid
reagents, or in which the test reagents come sealed in
little capsules, are the most accurate. Most every kit
requires that it be used by someone who is not color blind
as sometime the shifts in shades of some color can be
nearly impossible to detect by a color blind person.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Yes Frank, I did read that link Cali wrote. That is why I am so upset over this little "milk carton" of Aquarium Salt they keep at the stores. Myself & two other people I know of, & I'm sure countless other people, see this product, read on the back how "essential" this is & how "fish need it to thrive in an aquarium". It says to use it when first setting up & at every water change. The average person like myself believes what it says & buys & uses it. This does not seem right to me.

The test strips are never accurate, even though they say they are?! That was all they had at walmart in this town. So I just wasted $20?!

Ok, so can I at least use them till they run out? Are the readings a least accurate enough to give you a good enough idea of how my water is? And what about my ammonia I'm putting into the tank? Do I buy that stuff at the store this says it gets rid of it? Or are you going to tell me that stuff is bad for the fish & won't work anyway?

Sorry about all the questions.............. but you did say to ask!

So I will change 25% of the water every day for awhile. Anything else? (Besides testing for potability)

If the ammonia is in the well water first you need to know the level and a test strip isn't accurate enough for that. If the level is low you can usually do normal water changes and the bacteria will take care of the excess ammonia very quickly so it does not bother the fish. Your problem then will actually be high nitrates and you may have to incorporate a few easy plants into your tank to take care of it. If the ammonia is high it would be best for your health as well to improve the filtration system coming from the well. As for fish it will prove difficult if you don't take steps to lower the ammonia before it comes out of the faucet. You may have to run a 2nd tank to cycle the ammonia in the water into nitrates and then remove the nitrates(most likely via plants) to make the water useable.

If there is just as much ammonia in the well water as the tank then water changes won't really help. That's kind of a judgement call on whether to leave the tank alone or do water changes until you know more information. Might be a good idea to grab a bottle of prime or ammolock in the meantime. Both will make the ammonia in the tank less toxic. Prime would be better but is not sold at walmart. I think ammolock is just a couple bucks a bottle but will throw off the ammonia readings in your tank making them appear higher. When I lived in the middle of nowhere with only a walmart(30mins away still) for supplies I ordered most everything off www.bigalsonline.com and www.drfostersmith.com.

Thanks Sham! You answered my questions, for right now.


Are we having fun yet??

Actually, believe it or not I am. I'm in the process of learning how to keep a proper aquarium, thanks to you guys! I will check out those sites, thanks.

Time for me to step in here.

Item number one. If your source of drinking water tests positive for Ammonia, then I'd worry. Because in the long term it'll affect your health as well as that of the fishes. Not much use spending time diligently maintaining an aquarium and trying to keep your fishes happy if the water company is supplying you with toxic water from the word go. No wonder people have RO units fitted for drinking purposes in the States ...

Item number two. Stable readings, even if they diverge modestly from the 'textbook' settings, are not a major worry, particularly if the aquarium inmates are captive bred, and even more particularly if they've been bred in your locality and are thus acclimatised to your tap water from the word go (Ammonia issues notwithstanding). However, if the readings diverge markedly from those that your fishes prefer, this will, eventually, add to the stresses that will compromise their health. For example, put Rift Lake Cichlids in soft, acid water and they'll be dead in hours. Put a Corydoras catfish in brackish water (i.e., water containing salt) and you're looking at a pickled Cory in fairly short order (I mentioned this in my piece on the difference between primary and secondary freshwater fishes).

Item number three. Wal-Mart is a cut-price supermarket. It is NOT a specialist fish outlet. Any advice from Wal-Mart is to be taken, pardon the enormous pun, with a very liberal pinch of salt. Er, make that a large BUCKET. How many experienced fishkeepers do they hire? And if they do, what's the probability of them ending up in the pet section where they can do some good? Your average Wal-Mart floor staff member is a harassed, stressed individual struggling to make ends meet on minimum wage terms, and you don't hire expertise of any sort for minimum wages. What you hire is people who are desperate for any job, no matter how much it's akin to slavery. Some of those minimum wage slaves are likely to be immigrants only just teetering on the right side of legal, struggling with English as a second langauge, and the ones that aren't are likely to be the people tossed out by the high school system with basic literacy or worse. Your chances of receiving sound advice in that environment, I would estimate to be close to zero. The fact that they're selling salt (and if you look on the packet, I bet it isn't even proper sea salt, it's the iodised variety used for the table) as something to add to a freshwater aquarium tells me that the staff either don't know, or if they do, they say nothing because if the management finds out they're not pushing a product, they're looking at being fired. Corporate social responsibility tends to be a luxury item dispensed with at the drop of a hat in the cut-throat supermarket business, and the only effective means of bringing about change in that regard is likely to be Federal legislation ... and your chances of that coming to pass right now are roughly on a par with my chances of being propositioned for a steamy, torrid night of passion by Scarlett Johanssen.

Do not even try to contemplate what life is like for their fishes, given that their shop floor staff are probably regarded as being as disposable as toilet paper. Your likelihood of being given advice in that environment that wouldn't be regarded as pitiful by most of the experienced Board members here is so tiny you'd need an electron microscope to see it.

Item number four. Back in the old days (and here I'm talking about the era of the venerable Innes book, which was first published in the late 1930s!), salt was used as a treatment for White Spot because in that ear, the modern fish medications we have now simply didn't exist. The method by which the salt worked (if it didn't kill some of the fishes first) was as follows. The White Spot organism, being a tiny ball of cells dividing on the side of your fish, is more susceptible to the dehydrating effects of a saline solution than the fish, by the simple virtue of the fish having a larger body volume. This comes about by simple osmosis - the migration of water, across a semi permeable membrane (such as the outer membrane of a cell) from a solution of lower concentration to one of a higher concentration, in order to restore equilibrium across the membrane. Water thus moves out of the White Spot organism into the surrounding salt solution. Hopefully, enough water migrates out of the parasite to dehydrate and kill it before the fish suffers too many ill effects, and the fish can be returned to fresh water, where the now dead White Spot organism can be sloughed off. The reverse procedure - putting a saltwater fish into freshwater for a short while to cause saltwater parasites to swell up and burst - works on the same osmotic principle. However, this treatment method is pretty primitive: to make it effective without compromising the life of the fish, you would need to be able to measure osmotic pressures within the fish directly, and for now, that kind of veterinary intervention is probably only available to research labs (and at hideous cost). The advent of modern anti-parasite medications that kill the free swimming stages of White Spot while leaving the fishes relatively unaffected are a FAR better way of tackling that problem if it arises. Not least, because research and development budgets have been spent perfecting them, under the supervision of people with Ph.Ds in biology and veterinary science. A level of expertise that you certainly won't find among the shelf stackers at your lcoal Wal-Mart.

Oh, and one final piece of advice to offer is this: if you DO decide that water chemistry adjustments are appropriate for your fishes, presumably because there's a compelling reason to implement them, make them gradual. If you're going to change the pH from 7.8 to 6.2, for example, spread the change over two to three weeks minimum preferably longer.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Ok, Sham first- We live in a rent house & are supposed to be moving some day cause it is up for sale, so doing something about the water is not really an option for us right now, unless there is a small water purifyer to hook onto the faucet that will remove ammonia. And yes, we will inform the owner about the water problem.

Comparing the BEFORE readings with the tank readings tells me I should keep up the water changes cause there is less ammonia in the faucet than in the tank right now. Also there are no nitrites or nitrates in the water faucet but there is in the tank, so water changes should take care of that.

I do have a few small walmart bulbs in there that have grown just a litlte. Also cut a clipping off my pothos plant & set it on top of the water cause I read that would help, just like you said.

I figured I would do a few more water changes till the ammonia level came down & read the same as the ammomia coming from the faucet, & the nitrate & nitrite levels come down also. Then I would get a bottle of Prime , if hubby goes to a big city before I need it...........otherwise ammolock. Then if I keep up the weekly water changes along with ammolock, I would think that should keep everything at a reasonabe level? Does that sound like a good plan?

OK Cali- My readings do differ markedly from what my fishes like. That is why I'm trying to get them out of the danger point. After that I will work on the ph maybe since it reads 8.4......... except according to you guys, the test strips don't test accurately. And yes, I will figure a way to bring the ph down slowly if I do.

As for walmart........... I know exactly what you are saying! They give no advice & I ask no advice. If anything, I have given advice. Yeah, that's pretty pathetic, I know. But then they don't claim to be fish experts. You can tell that cause they have no one person in charge of the fish. You grab the nearest employee you can find to fetch the fish out & that is usually the guy that works in the hardware dept..

You know.......... speaking of the old days & the Innes book........... I have that book!
"exotic aquarium fishes by Dr. William T. Innes The original edition with 70 new color photographs." I bought it in the big city in a pet store about 8 years ago. So I guess it is still in publication. I WONDERED why most of the pictures were in black & white with old looking tanks!?

ThankYou guys for sticking with me on this!

Hi,
Actually, I have that book too. 'cept, I bought it new
when it first hit the book stores.
My issue has a Foreword written by the author and dated
February 18, 1966, TFH Publication nr TFH PS542. I gather
the origional that was mentioned did not have the color
photographs, and that although it does not say it, this
is a reissue that includes the "70 new color photographs."
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Since the venerable Innes book has come to the fore, I thought I'd write this little piece about it.

Enjoy!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Hi Fish patty

I know that to go with an RO system is expensive & since you do rent, you don't want to go & make this big purchase & then leave it behind when you move.

However, there are other systems that are more affordable & you can take the system with you. You just need to find out what your options are. I think Menards or a Home Depot may have something...But I do believe that the water you have, you may want to have checked out.

Good luck!

Frank.......... I have the same book as you do where Innes writes the forward & dates it. If you will notice in the FIRST forward, it says that in the original book there were some color photographs.

Jasmine........thanks. We don't have what you mentioned here, but we do have a Lowes. We may check into that & see what it has. If not.............. we can always go to the big city.

Cali.......... wow......... you ought to put all your articles together in a book form & put it on the internet so we can reference to it whenever we need to know about something. But so far you've done a good job of keeping up with us & putting your articles in where needed.

There are many small RO systems designed to only provide a limited amount of water and not service a full house. Often they aren't even designed to provide water to a single faucet with any force but instead to a seperate outlet that lets you fill a bucket for a tank or a glass of drinking water. You can even get units that only attach to your shower so you can wash in RO water. I mentioned the aquasafe system that is a favorite of many aquarists and sold on ebay. You can also find other brands in hardware stores. The reason I can't set my unit up is because the preferred way is to drill a connection into the pipes under the sink which generally isn't allowed when you rent. Although if you offer to replace the pipe when you move many people won't have an issue with it. 2nd you can get an attachment to screw onto a normal faucet but with our hard water the last faucet I tried to take the aerator off of ended up getting cracked all the way down and had to be replaced. All the hardwater deposits cement the pieces of the faucet together and the hardware in this apartment is not new so I would bet the only way to get that aerator off is to destroy something. With slightly softer water that does not apply. The 3rd problem with setting up an RO system is the apartment owners pay for our water and an RO system constantly puts out waste water unless you do not keep it under pressure. Turning off the pressure can cause a few issues and it all is just too much trouble to be worth it for me. With well water that is not an issue since you aren't paying per gallon for it.

Wow Sham..........sorry about the wow's guys, but I AM wowed at all this. I'm learning all about water chemistry & RO units & people's cats (another post) & all kinds of stuff. I still need to download a dictionary widget.

Will tell hubby all you said & see what he says. I leave those kind of decisions up to him....... cause he will do what he wants to anyway. Thanks for all the info. on the RO units Sham!.

I did a 50% water change.....25% water change.....25% water change. (Building my muscles up hauling all that water for a 55Gal.)

I tested the tank water this am. to see if I was doing any good.

ammonia 6.0
nitrate 80
nitrite .5
hardness 300
alkalinity 300 (Actually the color looks like it's off the chart!)
ph 8.4

You guys said to get a GOOD test kit, such as a liquid or capsule. Hubby will be in big city maybe next week & will get a good one, IF he knows what to get. Can someone please recommend what brands to get at Petsmart & what brands NOT to get? I sure don't want to waste another $20! If you are going to tell me that Petsmart has no GOOD brands then I will just order online from one of those sites you gave me. Thank you VERY much!

Aquarium pharmaceuticals is usually the best for the price. They have a master test kit with most of the common tests although it's not 100% complete. I believe it's missing a nitrate test. One problem you have is that your ph is right on the borderline of both a low and high ph test so you might need both to determine exactly which it is. The master kit does include both. Tetra kits are generally very hard to read aside from their nitrate test. I like their nitrate test but prefer not to use the rest. Hagen and Seachem test kits also aren't bad but aren't really worth the higher price(around twice as much) when aquarium pharm tests work just fine. Most petstores carry aquarium pharm and tetra brand. I haven't really paid attention to what specifically is at petsmart.

So we should get Aquarium Pharm. -master test kit if at all possible (forget paying double for the others!) If we can't find that we'll go with teta. Hmmmmm Aquarium Pharm. is also the one that puts out those small milk cartons of Aquarium Salt that says you NEED it.

Interesting.

At wal-mart the ammonia test strips were sold in a seperate box. According to what you guys said ANY strips aren't much good, so I'm assuming the ammonia test strips are also not much good, therefore I will need new testing for the ammonia, which I will assume is in the master kit.

Ok, guess we'll go with the info. you gave then. Thanks again Sham!

Well, test strips are better than nothing. If they alert you to a potential problem, then you can pursue a more accurate test and find out if the potential problem is an actual problem.

The BIG problem with test strips is this. They are made by soaking absorbent paper in a range of chemical reagents coupled with an indicator dye. The idea is that certain key reactions will take place if substances of interest are present, and in turn affect the hue of the indicator dye. However, those reactions are, in general, only useful for an accurate quantitative determination of the concentration of the substances in question if you use actual reagents in a laboratory setting. Because, in a loaboratory setting, you can mix solutions of your reagents with known and accurately determined concentrations, so that the test result is then reasonably accurate. The trouble with test strips is that unless the manufacturer exercises a fair amount of effort in their production, the concentration of reagents cannot be guaranteed with anything other than a wide margin of error. Some manufacturers are better than others at this, and magazine tests of the accuracy of the test strips have sometimes yielded some interesting results. While in the main, quality names with a reputation to uphold are better at the task, sometimes a less well known name issues some surprises. However, test strips will always be less accurate than a proper quantitative determination in the laboratory. This is not to say that they are useless - used with due care and attention, they are actually pretty helpful. However, acquiring the level of judgement required to know when to trust them and when not to trust them is one of those skills you have to acquire.

Of course, the development most aquarists are looking forward to is the use of electronic monitoring of key parameters. A fair amount of research and development money is being devoted to this, so that in the future, aquarist may have access to affordable multi-probe electronic systems that can monitor ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and other dissolved molecules/ions accurately and in real time. This of course will make life a LOT easier for marine aquarists in particular, who will be able to set up their systems, at some future point, to perform such wonders as sending emergency SMS phone messages or E-Mails to alert them of problems such as an ammonia spike, so that they can deal with the problem when they get home, which will be perfectly possible in future as electronic monitoring and sensor devices are combined with dedicated hardware web servers (indeed, some devices of this kind already exist). Being able to monitor an aquarium in real time and check for escalating values of unwanted 'problem' substances so that they can be dealt with before they become a lethal issue will remove a LOT of headaches from aquarists.

Until then, however, test strips will have their uses. But, like most other things in this game, knowing how to use them is part of the art.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Knowing how to use them is part of the art?? I just thought you read the inst. & did what it said? The results tell you how your water is & weather those no.'s are in the safe zone or dangerous zone, etc.? As usual............. I guess I'm mistaken. Sooooooo Cali do you have a link on hand to one of your articles that explaines "how" to use these test strips?

Basically, you take your reading, and if it doesn't indicate any problems, you've no need to act further. If your reading suggests that there's a problem to address, however, then you consider a more accurate test. If the more accurate test shows up a problem, act FAST.

Oh, and keep careful tabs on the use by dates. There's a limit to the shelf life of test kits that use strips.

Some test kits, however, use liquid reagents - Tetra make kits of this kind. These tend to be more expensive, but you're paying for increased accuracy into the bargain, because the liquid reagents are prepared to known standards before being packaged. Go here, scroll down, and look for the separate pH, ammonia and nitrite/nitrate tests. Tetra also ships all the liquid tests in one big package (the so-called "Laborett" kit) which is pretty expensive, but likely to be more accurate than test strips. Having said that, Tetra make their own test strips, which usually perform well in accuracy tests run by the fishkeeping magazines, but of course are still less accurate than the liquid reagent kits.

Of course, if you suspect that something is amiss and want comfirmation, you go straight for the liquid kit. If that confirms your suspicions, then it's time to move and act.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Thanks Cali. I did the test strips after my filter had been off for a week & my water was still cloudy after a few days of the filter running again & a partial water change. It showed definate problems, so I changed half the water vacuuming really good & put new filter pads in the filter. I'm thinking now I shouldn't have done both cause I was getting rid of too much bacteria at one time & maybe causing the tank to have to "cycle" again.

Anyway, after a few more partial water changes everyday, the readings looked better. I'm going to give it a few more days of water changing & then test it again. To me the test strips appear to be working ok as they were indicating there is an improvement in my tank water. I just bought these test strips. They are "jungle" brand & the 5 tests in one said it expires 2008/07. The ammoia test strips are also made by "jungle". They expire 2007/10.

If these test strips are only off by one or two colors, I don't think that would make much difference. I'm working on getting the no'.s, down right now. If I can get them down to 0 like my BEFRORE readings from fresh out of the faucet, I'll be happy & work on keeping it that way. Of course my readings on ph & the like will always be high unless I soften the water. And my ammonia will always be what it is out of the faucet. But if I can get it that low then I can just start using that ammolock, whatever it was called.

I checked out your site. The Laborett kit did not contain the ammonia test from what I saw. I also could not find any prices & it is only for in the UK. I'm sure I can get them here though. If we are speaking much over $20.00 it will have to wait anyway. Since my current test kit appears to be working ok for right now, I will stick with it for awhile. If I have reason to suspect it, then I will buy what has been suggested.

In conclusion: How much accuracy do I need? If my strips say there is a problem, I just keep on doing water changes till things come down as low as they can be. I mean, if my strips eventually say I have no more problems.......... then I don't even see a reason for getting a better test kit........... unless I'm missing something here?

Required accuracy is determined by circumstance. If your test strips tell you, for example, that your ammonia levels are heading into low earth orbit, then a more accurate test isn't really needed - all you need to know at that point is that action is required FAST ...

If, however, your values are borderline cases, then it's time to call in a more accurate test.

Additionally, if you're engaged in a project such as Discus breeding, where precise determination of parameters is required in order to ensure that your breeding aquarium is just right for them (because they are demanding fishes), then again, an accurate test kit is required. But if you're splashing out the funds required to launch into Discus breeding, chances are you will have bought the accurate test kit BEFORE buying the fishes

For general aquarium maintenance, test strips are adequate so long as you understand from the outset that there is a margin of error associated with them that could, in some circumstances, require a second opinion. Once you engage in challenging fishkeeping projects (Discus breeding, keeping freshwater rays, fishes from unusual biotopes such as the alkaline Cichlid Alcolapia alcalicus which actually NEEDS a pH of 10!) then you are into the realm of requiring accurate kits. However, as I said above, chances are if you embark upon projects of that kind, you'll pick up accurate test kits first without needing me to tell you.

In my case, a test kit is somewhat redundant because I KNOW (courtesy of regular assays from my water company, who have access to labs with mass spectrometers and other equipment that is way beyond the reach of you or I) that my water is suitable for the fishes I'm keeping, and I know that my nitrates are low because [1] I have Hornwort in the aquarium hoovering nitrates up at a rate of knots, and [2] the aquarium receives a water change and gravel vac twice per week. Under those conditions, nitrates don't get a chance to rise too high.

Basically, if your stocking levels are relatively light, your species choices are wise ones, and your filtration system is of good quality, chances are test kits will be needed only on an occasional basis. After all, a LOT of successful fishkeeping was performed in the days before test kits existed.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

THANK YOU CALI!!!!

That is what I have been wanting to hear! For what I am doing I think these test strips are fine for now. I'm just trying to keep the ordinary fish I have alive & healthy. I don't care about breeding any of them so all they need is decent water & heat within a reasonable range. I bought a heater last week........... it's getting cold here now.
Hang in there Cali.............. you guys will make an aquariust (SP) out of me yet. First........ I might learn how to spell it.

"Once you engage in challenging fishkeeping projects...................." Cali.......... I AM in a challenging fish keeping project! It's challenging to keep these fish alive! Once I get this tank "good" in the sight of you people here........... I am going to sit back & enjoy them for awhile!

VERY INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT!!!

Hubby said to test the jug of distilled water we had in the fridge. I did & everything registered good as it being soft water except the pH said it was high alkalinity.

The thing we couldn't believe was when I did the ammonia test. It came out as dangerous! I was very careful, rinsing the vial out a couple times with the distilled water before adding the final test water. Could those test strips really be that bad!??

Needless to say he is going to get some decent liquid tests next time he is in the big city! I cannot wait to try the new ones out and compare them with the test strips I have! I wouldn't mind a test being one color off, but all the way off to the end of the scale?? This just does not make sense! Is there any way that ammonia could have gotten into the jug, even if someone drank from it, other than the obvious way of someone peeing it?

If I find those test strips are WAY off, I'm going to call that company & give them a piece of my mind! $20 is a chunk of money to waste in this household!

Yes test strips can be that far off. Either things can happen while they are being made, they can be exposed to eliminates that ruin them even after you open them, or they can just be old. They sometimes sit on the shelf for who knows how long. If you get good quality test strips and are experienced then yes you can use them to judge approximately how your tank is doing and act accordingly. If you don't have experience and/or you have bad test strips it can lead to improper information and bad mistakes. You can also accomplish keeping fish without a test kit but again it can lead to mistakes until you have more experience. For the cost of a good liquid kit and how long they last there's no reason for a beginner not to buy it at least once.

You can get faucet adapters to hook up ro units but as I stated my problem is our hardwater cements the aerator onto the faucet. It gets coated in calcium deposits and removing it leads to breaking the faucet. If you don't have large white deposits all over your faucet then all you do is unscrew the aerator, screw on the adaptor, and turn on the water to start filling the ro unit. Makes using that particular sink difficult though depending on how expensive of adaptor you get.

Hmm, VERY interesting indeed!

Right, here's what you do.

Step 1: Dig out a digital camera. Either that or borrow one from a friend for the purpose.

Step 2: Repeat the test with the test strips upon a water sample you KNOW to be free of ammonia - i.e., distilled water. Photograph the test being conducted.

Step 3: Photograph the test result. If the test result is way off, as before, then you know that the test strips are faulty.

Step 4: Check the 'use by' date on the test strips. Don't forget that they have a finite lifetime. If the 'use by' date is still some time in the future, then the strips are DEFINITELY faulty. In which case you should be entitled to a refund. Here in the UK, we have a piece of legislation called the Sale Of Goods Act, which requires all goods sold to the consumer to be, and I quote, "of merchantable quality". This is legal jargon that basically means that the item is fit for the purpose that it was sold for. Items that fail to be of 'merchantable quality' here in the UK qualify for a refund by law. If there are any disputes, we have a small army of Trading Standards officers to enforce the legislation. Make sure that ALL steps in the procedure are photographed with the digital camera and the resulting images stored somewhere safe (e.g., burned to a CD and verified as written properly afterwards).

Step 5: Check whether or not you have similar legislation applicable to you - in the US, there exist "Lemon Laws" that apply to cars that are faulty, and these laws were introduced when people who had paid thousands of dollars for a new car found themselves stuck with a worthless heap of junk that was about as much use for transportation as a collapsed blancmange. It's entirely possible that other consumer legislation of a similar vein applies to other products too. If you have such legislation, take ruthless advantage of it. Remember, it's your money down the drain if you're sold a duff product. The dealer can take the hit better than you can. If push comes to shove, E-Mail the manufacturer with the evidence and demand either a refund or a working replacement. If you receive a snarky reply, threaten them with all kinds of bad publicity courtesy of your local newspapers & TV station. If there's one thing that gets company execs moving off their backsides and switching attention from browsing the Mercedes-Benz website for a shiny new limo, it's the thought that their company is going to be plastered all over the media as a bunch of crooks. On the other hand, if the company coughs up, chalk one up for the little guy.

Oh, and testing your kit against a sample of known quality to make sure that the readings are good is ALWAYS a good idea. Something that chemists do in the lab with their reagents before proceeding.

As for ammonia getting into distilled water, the only routes I know of are as follows:

[1] There is a source of ammonia gas nearby (ammonia spontaneously dissolves in water at a prodigious rate, as a quick look at the fountain experiment in a chemistry lab will demonstrate VERY forcefully);

[2] There is a source of ammonia contamination from another water source with some means of connecting the two.

It's worth checking your fridge by the way. It's possible your fridge uses a small amount of ammonia as a refrigerant medium, and that the fridge has a leak somewhere. Here's a little piece about refrigerants]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerant[/link], and a [link=list of refrigerants which includes ammonia if you scroll down far enough (it's listed as R-717). While anhydrous ammonia is usually used in large commercial plants far from inhabited areas, it's possible that there's a mixture of refrigerants in your fridge because of concerns about CFCs and the ozone layer.

If your fridge has a panel at the back listing the refrigerant contents (again I believe this is a legal requirement in the UK - don't know about the States though) and the panel states that the refrigerant is partly or wholly R-717, then you have an ammonia source in your fridge. It's possible that you have a fridge in need of servicing (yes, the expense of servicing it will be painful, but at least you'll know what's happening). If your fridge is at fault, then testing your strips on some RO water from a marine aquarist suppiers should provide the definitive answer as to whether your test strips are truly faulty - if they STILL deliver a duff reading even with RO water (again, photograph the testing taking place!) then you're loking at a refund. Oh, it's all good fun, isn't it?


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

"It's all good fun?" Now you want me to learn about refrigerators?!

Actually.......... despite the frustrations......... this whole thing has struck me as being rather comical. I just wanted to watch some pretty fish & see where it has led me?

Ok......... get a load of this guys! ANOTHER DEVELOPMENT!

First off, the jug of water in the fridge was always capped, so I doubt that any ammonia could have gotten into it from our fridge. But we had a jug that had never been opened. I opened it & tested it. It came out with the same results as the first jug! Soft water, high alkalinity & dangerous level of ammonia! These two jugs of water were not from this state. These two jugs of water were put out by different water companies from two separate states! Hmmmmmm!

Sham- As I stated earlier these strips are not outdated. I have been careful with them since I just purchased them. Nothing here contaminated them. So that leaves your last guess.......... something could have happened while they were being made.

I just did a test on my tank water........... RESULTS:

ammonia 6.0=danger
nitrate 40
nitrite .5
total hardness 300
total alkalinity 300
pH 8.4

Not being too familiar with water chemistry, could these results be from when I cleaned the filter & put in new pads & then vacuumed real good? Like maybe I caused the tank to try to cycle again? I'm not too concerned about the ammonia reading any more........ thinking THOSE strips are faulty. But should I continue to do the 25% water change every day in a effort to bring down the nitrate & nitrite readings? Or am I doing more harm than good?

Hmmmm did everyone fall asleep on me? Since my water changes keep bringing the nitrate & nitrite no's. down, I will assume I should keep doing them. Maybe next week we can get one of those liquid test kits & see more clearly what is going on here.

I'd switch to every other day or every 3rd day water changes. That nitrate level is probably a little off if you've been doing water changes the past few days. Otherwise you would have started with quite a high nitrate level in the first place. The nitrite on the strips seems at least mildly accurate in this case and by no means in the dangerous range for most fish unless it stays that way for awhile. I'd cut the water changes just a little to let it cycle better. My guess would be your tank isn't actually that bad. Your test kits are just off. You overcleaned causing a small mini cycle and it probably won't reach dangerous levels before cycling even if you don't do water changes but for the sake of safety and not having any proper tests I'd do at least 3 water changes during the week. If the nitrite reading suddenly spikes on your strips increase water changes. While the numbers may not be accurate they can at least give you an idea if the nitrites are going up or down.

Thanks Sham! That sounds like a good idea to me too! I would much rather do water changes about every other day rather than every day!