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Thank you all. This has been very informative. I will add some crushed coral to one of my tanks and monitor what this does over a period of time. Will also use baking soda, if needed, but very conservatively. Hopefully the coral will take care of this and make the water quality consistent. My wife and I are considering selling our house next and moving to a location that happens to use well water. When this happens, it will be a whole new learning curve.

i envy you, our city water is like 9.0+ usually, we get the water from the river above the city, so it isn't pollution most likly, and if our climate was better we could have a South Dakotan version of the africans (but 2 my knowledge there are no cichlids that can survive <32F-~75F

Thanks, everyone. The man who can answer my questions about my town's management of its water supply is on vacation so I'll have to wait on that. The day after I posted about my 29 gallon tank having a ph crash, my 44 gallon tank also had a similar crash. Fortunately, all of my fish, except for the Oto Cats survived, but I now have an ich outbreak in that tank. I don't know if the stress of sudden change contributed to it. After a year of peacful aquarium keeping, I've had two tough months with that tank. I started a treatment of Maricide last night and the fish were actually eating a little tonight.

Once I am leaning towards trying a small amount of crushed coral and seeing if I can get the ph up a bit and keep it consistently there. If that doesn't work, I might try the baking soda again and this time do daily KH and GH readings. I am dedicated enough to my aquariums to do daily tests. I mistake before, when I was trying to keep PH up with just baking soda, was doing daily PH readings and not daily hardness readings. I'll watch for any more of your thoughts on this subject.

Thanks,
Rick (Todash19)

Baking soda will indeed create a higher GH and KH and consequently a higher pH...

However, since the poster's pH has reached a normal level, no additional increase is required.

I don't suggest adding baking soda because of the constant testing required to reach a common value pH and the chance of increasing pH too rapidly.

Every water change would require more dosing also, a rather bothersome procedure.

--garyroland.

Todash,

Sodium bicarbonate will allow you to raise your KH without increasing your GH. My last post indicated that 0.5 teaspoon of baking soda to 100 liters (26.42 gallons) will raise your KH by 1 degree of German hardness (17 ppm). You should have about 3dGH or 51 ppm of buffering (KH) to prevent a pH crash.

I would add a half teaspoon of baking soda to your 29 gallon tank after putting it in solution. That is, dissolve the baking soda in a gallon milk jug then pour it into your tank. Test the GH and KH of your water before adding the solution and then wait one hour after adding the solution and then test it again. Your tank KH should rise about 1dGH.

You should be able to comfortably raise the KH in your tank by 2 dGH within a couple of hours by adding additional solutions of baking soda. Your pH should also rise but pH increases are much less stressful to fish than pH decreases.

Last edited by Bob Wesolowski at 04-Jan-2005 04:29

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Try the town's web site. in their water quality section they should post the latest water quality test results.

pH crashes are rather rare and only occur when the local water department fails to test and adjust their pH values...

If the local water department buffers its water supply, the tendency of pH to shift is eliminated. Unbuffered water will seek its own pH level and will shift after being introduced to the aquarium.

Older running tanks will tend to favor pH crashes also so tests should be made on those tanks to discover a pH weakness.

If your water has rebounded to a 6.8 to 7.0 pH value you're in the ballpark to keep happy trops and no additional measures are required to adjust pH.

Smaller tanks tend to be a little touchy when it comes to keeping a happy pH value. More frequent testing would be the safest method to employ to make sure your trops are not affected by sudden and uncalled for pH changes.

Your water treatment plant will be able to inform you of their treatment methods which do vary from season to season.

--garyroland.

Last edited by garyroland at 03-Jan-2005 09:59

I got some good help here two weeks ago ago with the suggestion of crushed coral to raise the ph level of my very soft town-supplied water. Since posting my original message, I've been testing my tap water's ph, etc. every day or two. Shortly after posting, the tap's ph went from below 6.2 to 7.0 and stayed around there consistently. But the KH is still <1 and the GH is still between 3-4 (and I think that translates to 51-68ppm). My two aquariums had kept a ph between 6.8-7.2 since the tap water had become more alkaline, but my 29 gallon had a ph crash this week-end. Luckily no fish died! Anyway, I did a water change and got the ph back to 7.0 but I have bought the crushed coral and am ready to implement, except I have three more questions: 1) If my ph from the tap is now around 7.0, will crushed coral raise that into too-high alkaline levels (my fish generally like ph of 7.0 or lower)? 2) In case the coral is too much, any suggestions for a method of putting the coral under the substrate so I could remove it, if necessary (I was thinking about some kind of tight mesh bag)? 3) How much coral would you recommend? Thanks.

I meant to add that it is primarily for disease resistance that I am bothering to fiddle with the natural ph level of my tank. A secondary benefit would be gaining the ability to accommodate a broader range of fish types in the future

I'd like some advice about my ph level. I have town water with a very low ph: ph < 6.0 (my test kit doesn't go below 6.0). Kh < 1. Gh = 3. For the two years that I've had aquariums, I have not bothered to fiddle with the ph. I have live plants so I stayed away from Ph Up products. This Fall, I had problems with bacterial infections in the tanks and the lfs owner said that my low ph may be contributing to lack of protective bacteria in my penguin filters. He suggested that I try to bring my ph up slowly and consistently. I have started to experiment with baking soda and have been trying to keep the Ph between 6.4-7.0 I've been pretty succesful but sometimes the ph dips despite no changes in the tank. I test Ph 1-2 times per day and add < 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda when it dips down. I have read some advice on forums that it's better to leave ph alone. I'd like opinions about this - pro and con to using baking soda on a regular basis. This is a great hobby. Thanks for any help -

29 gallon tank:
5 Bleeding Heart Tetra
2 Black Skirt Tetra
2 Cherry Barbs
1 Otto Cat
1 Flame Dwarf Gourami
1 German Blue Ram
will be adding 6 Panda Cories after I settle this question

44 gallon tank:
4 Praecox Rainbowfish
3 Clown Loaches (small)
1 Opaline Gourami
1 Lace Gourami
1 Calico Angelfish (will be adding another soon)

This will take a couple of posts. The first post is from the Krib on kH:

Buffering Capacity (KH, Alkalinity)

Buffering capacity refers to water's ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added. pH and buffering capacity are intertwined with one another; although one might think that adding equal volumes of an acid and neutral water would result in a pH halfway in between, this rarely happens in practice. If the water has sufficient buffering capacity, the buffering capacity can absorb and neutralize the added acid without significantly changing the pH. Conceptually, a buffer acts somewhat like a large sponge. As more acid is added, the ``sponge'' absorbs the acid without changing the pH much. The ``sponge's'' capacity is limited however; once the buffering capacity is used up, the pH changes more rapidly as acids are added.

Buffering has both positive and negative consequences. On the plus side, the nitrogen cycle produces nitric acid (nitrate). Without buffering, your tank's pH would drop over time (a bad thing). With sufficient buffering, the pH stays stable (a good thing). On the negative side, hard tap water often almost always has a large buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is too high for your fish, the buffering capacity makes it difficult to lower the pH to a more appropriate value. Naive attempts to change the pH of water usually fail because buffering effects are ignored.

In freshwater aquariums, most of water's buffering capacity is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness'' (KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably. Although technically not the same things, they are equivalent in practice in the context of fishkeeping. Note: the term ``alkalinity'' should not be confused with the term ``alkaline''. Alkalinity refers to buffering, while alkaline refers to a solution that is a base (i.e., pH > 7).

How much buffering does your tank need? Most aquarium buffering capacity test kits actually measure KH. The larger the KH, the more resistant to pH changes your water will be. A tank's KH should be high enough to prevent large pH swings in your tank over time. If your KH is below roughly 4.5 dH, you should pay special attention to your tank's pH (e.g, test weekly, until you get a feel for how stable the pH is). This is ESPECIALLY important if you neglect to do frequent partial water changes. In particular, the nitrogen cycle creates a tendency for an established tank's pH to decrease over time. The exact amount of pH change depends on the quantity and rate of nitrates produced, as well as the KH. If your pH drops more than roughly two tenths of a point over a month, you should consider increasing the KH or performing partial water changes more frequently. KH doesn't affect fish directly, so there is no need to match fish species to a particular KH.

Note: it is not a good idea to use distilled water in your tank. By definition, distilled water has essentially no KH. That means that adding even a little bit of acid will change the pH significantly (stressing fish). Because of its instability, distilled (or any essentially pure water) is never used directly. Tap water or other salts must first be added to it in order to increase its GH and KH.

From your posts, you need to increase the KH of your water to prevent pH swings. Yopu can do this by:

Hardening Your Water (Raising GH and/or KH)

The following measurements are approximate; use a test kit to verify you've achieved the intended results. Note that if your water is extremely soft to begin with (1 degree KH or less), you may get a drastic change in pH as the buffer is added.

To raise both GH and KH simultaneously, add calcium carbonate (CaCO3). 1/2 teaspoon per 100 liters of water will increase both the KH and GH by about 1-2 dH. Alternatively, add some sea shells, coral, limestone, marble chips, etc. to your filter.

To raise the KH without raising the GH, add sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), commonly known as baking soda. 1/2 teaspoon per 100 Liters raises the KH by about 1 dH. Sodium bicarbonate drives the pH towards an equilibrium value of 8.2.


__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Crushed coral, although a seawater product, will not add any measurable saline to a fresh water tank but will leach the important minerals that your water requires to slowly raise pH...

If your fish are experiencing bacterial infections it could be the trops slime coat production, essential for disease resistance, is not at a peak because of the low pH and lack of minerals available for the trops to improve their slime coat.

A lack of nourishing foods will also cause a slime coat deficiency.

Any porous rocks added to the tank will also leach required minerals for the trops.

You can mix crushed coral into the substrate or pile it up in the rear of the tank creating a raised underwater coral effect.

Adding baking soda, a mineral additive, will naturally raise the pH but constant use is required and the addition can be dangerous if overdosed creating a fast pH increase.

--garyroland.

Considering that water tests do suggest that your pH is acidic. I wouldn't bother raising it as form the your fish line-up, most if not all of them are acidic loving fish anyway so raising the pH value is not a big problem.

If what you are worried about is pH crashes, then adding a buffer to avoid this happening will be a good idea.

I too, tend to go for acidic loving fishes for some reason. Although my water is around the 7.5 mark, I can't stop thinking of ways to lower it down although they are doing fine in the tank. I have tried carefully modifying the pH value of my water when I was on the early stages of fishkeeping and was advised that trying to change this is very risky for the inhabitants of the tank. I've learned, but at the expense of a few lovely fish.

cichlidmad

I appreciate everyone trying to help me out. I've tried three different Ph test kits over the two years and they all come out at 6.0 or below, if I do not intervention. I haven't yet called the town water guy but may do that. Meanwhile, can you give me some more detail about putting crushed coral in my substrate: How much? How often? I have to admit that putting something that sounds like it belongs in an ocean tank makes me nervous. Meanwhile, can someone give advice about the using baking soda in an ongoing fashion. Do any of you seasoned veterans do this? Is it normal to have the ph begin to lower after a number of days with baking soda in the water? Thanks for any help. So far, all the fish seem to be doing well, even as I experiment cautiously with the baking soda. Thanks,

"Pipe corrosion may become significant in our water at pH levels below 7.5, and scaling problems increase at above pH 8.5."...

Well, for pete sake...sure.

Levels below 7.5 pH are slightly acidic and levels above 8.5 are slightly alkaline.

Now, unless I miss my guess and unless we're keeping pipes in our tanks, that statement is telling us that a neutral pH of 7.0 is what the treatment plant is trying to accomplish.

Sadly, the poster is trying to lower his tank water to a decent pH value and couldn't care less about the condition of the city water pipes.

If tap water is truly coming through the city pipes at a pH of 6.0, an acidic range value, it would appear the hobbyist's city doesn't give a darn about the condition of their pipes either.

--garyroland.

One of the main objectives in controlling pH is to produce water that minimizes pipe corrosion or hardness scale build up. Pipe corrosion may become significant in our water at pH levels below 7.5, and scaling problems increase at above pH 8.5. As a comparison, soft drinks have a pH of 3 and drugstore antacids have a pH of 10.

This is a quote from my city water quality page. I would verify that p.h. result before adding anything. Did you ask the lfs what their tapwater ph is?

If the true pH is that low out of the tap, it's very possible the local water treatment plant is using a Reverse Osmosis system to treat water...

You can call the plant and ask what treatment system they're using.

Meanwhile, crushed coral added to the substrate will leach the proper amount of minerals to increase the pH and keep it at a higher value.

--garyroland.

Hi,
Personally, I would be suspect of the values you are
getting with your test kit. I don't know of town that
puts out water that acidic. Most strive for 7.0 from
the pumps, and by the time the water gets to the tap it
can be higher.

I seem to recall that we have a member who introduced
herself as a chemist that worked with muni water supplies.
I hope she would read your post and respond.

I would test the water with another kit and if it's
still that acidic, try adding some crushed dolomite,
or crushed limestone to the filter so the water runs
through it and back to the tank.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 19-Dec-2004 09:43

Last edited by FRANK at 20-Dec-2004 01:10

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