FishProfiles.com Message Forums

No. the qoute above from your site says ammonium is very toxic and ammonia is not. My book says ammonium is the form that is less toxic, not ammonia.

Seem the names are mixed up here. What is right is that ammonia is less toxic at low pH.

How much do you think you can rely on the accuracy of the test you have? What brand is the test kit. It went from 40 down to 50 and could be from a kit or guessing accuracy or maybe the buffer just had a chance to mix with the water. At least you pH didn't go anywhere. Try to bring it back up to about 50. Let me know how it goes.

Another update - my KH is now 40 but my pH has remained steady at 7.2. In answer to your question Dragonfish, this tank gets a little less agitation than the 20.

Yes, test a couple times a day to make sure the pH isn't going anywhere and test the KH after a couple days to make sure it is still at 50.

One last question, does one tank get more surface aggitation that the other?

Okay, quick update. I've managed to slowly raise my KH to 50 and the pH is 7.2 so what's my next step ? I assume wait a couple of days and retest to see where it is at ?

I actually bought a MasterKit over the weekend which includes a KH test. I have added some KH buffer and will test it again tonight when I get home. I think the fishies appreciated it because they are far more active since the addition - though one may have absolutely nothing to do with the other.

I still find it odd that my 30gal is the only tank which has this problem. The others are all well within "normal" range. Same water from the same tap usually done at the same time. :%)

Cory_di the tap water not only has to sit out it has to be well ariated toO

Thank you dragonfish. I know enough to ask for kH testing, but am not the sharpest pencil in the cup on raising it slowly.

I think what would be interesting to see is the kH and gH of the tap water. I would let the water sit out for a couple of days in a cup, then test it for kH, gH and pH. Compare that to what you found in the two tanks. You may need to add a buffer to your refill water.

Your KH is low. Water with low KH is sensitive to pH swing. This could be the problem you are having. The steps I would take:

- If you haven't bought yourself a KH test kit yet, you should. You are going to have to test you KH frequently (usless you want to wing it and be unsure).

- Slowly add a KH buffer to your tank. Be careful because raising the KH will raise your pH. Things that are cheap and raise your KH are baking soda (yes, the stuff you keep in your kitchen cabinet and frig.) and sea shells. You can also buy buffers from your LFS (sometimes labels ph increasers but raise it through KH). You want to add them slowly because this may cause your pH to rise and you don't want to do this too quickly. Only about .1 ph increase every day. You can test this in a bucket of water before adding to your tank.

- Keep adding buffer while testing KH until your KH is at least 40-60ppm (or mg/l). This is about 2 to 4 degrees KH which some test kits measure in. Keep it closer to 40ppm as to not raise your pH too much and keeping it closer to neutral (7.0).

- When doing water changes, first adjust the water you plan to add to the tank to the proper KH level until both the KH and pH match the water in the tank. Then add the water to the tank. Adding water with KH that does not match the KH of the water in the tank can cause another pH swing.

If you are using sea shells or crushed coral, some people just keep this in their filter and it usually balances itself out at some pH level. Some companies manufature substrates for the tank that will buffer your water a bit like Onyx by Seachem. In this case I would keep water changes minimal but more frequently.

Just got back from my LFS with the numbers (oh and a new tank which I think I got a good deal on but that's another story).

20 gal
pH 7.2
kH 30 mg/L
gH 50 mg/L
ammonia 0
nitrAte 10 mg/L
nitrIte 0.3 mg/L (it is due for a water change today)

30 gal
pH 7.0 (but I used increaser 2 days ago)
kH 20 mg/L
gH 40 mg/L
ammonia 0
nitrAte 5 mg/L
nitrIte 0 mg/L

Ahhhh. I hadn't looked that close. I have high pH so I need to be concerned with ammonia in any form . I believe you are right tho from what I recall.

Hey - where's those kH and gH readings

My PH keeps falling in my 30 gal tank. The 20 gal has no problem and everything is basically the same as far as no driftwood, a couple of ceramic ornaments and a few fake plants. The 30 gal gets weekly water changes of approximately 30% with a gravel vac. Within a week at most, the PH will drop from 7.5 to around 5 or 5.5. Any ideas why ??

I agree it is still toxic and maybe the more appropriate statement would be, "less toxic".

Would you agree with that

CoryDi, The link you provided above says:

Strangely, though, the low pH actually protects the remaining fish by keeping the ammonia in the non-toxic ammonia (molecular) form instead of the very toxic ammonium (ionic) form!

I have a plant book that says the opposite. Ammonium in non-toxic and ammonia is toxic. Ammonium is produced in low acid pH and ammonia in high alkaline ph.

I think this was what confused someone in a post before when I was explaining how most plants absorb ammonium directly (instead of breaking down nitrates).

Old Tank Syndrome can come into play in newer tanks too. HOwever, if you gravel vac on a regular basis and the tank isn't piling up with uneaten food and decaying organics, you most likely wouldn't experience it.

I'm at work right now so I'll have to get those readings tonight when I get home. As for the age of the tanks, the 20 gal is 7 months old and the 30 gal is around 3 months old (I think) so it can't be old-tank syndrome.

The kH should tell us something. Get it on both tanks. I would not use pH adjusters regardless. These are dangerous and can cause a swing upward, followed by an abrupt drop right back down - all in too short of time. Fish should not be exposed to more than 0.2 change in 24 hours and in extreme emergencies and over the course of 24 hours, 0.4. Keep that in mind.

Can you take a bag of water to the lfs? Ask for kH and gH readings and bring us the numbers. Bag water from both tanks and mark them so we can compare.

What is the age difference between the two tanks? Older tanks can go through old-tank syndrome. Select that topic from the top list in this series of articles: http://www.bestfish.com/articles.html



[span class="edited"][Edited by Cory_Di 2004-07-09 16:29][/span]

same tap, same python, same kind of substrate (just different colours). :%)

Are you using the same replacement water in both tanks? If you are using distilled or RO water in the 30, that could explain it and you would see this in the kH as there are no minerals in such water.

Definietly get kH and gH readings.

If it IS your KH - it was with my tanks - then you can try adding limestone or sandstone instead of crushed coral. My ten gallon is now stabilized thanks to a nice chunk of sandstone. The twenty gallon has the same issues and I don't think the sandstone piece is big enough to handle the fluctuations (it's only a tad bigger than the piece in the ten gallon), as I still have some issues with the pH.

Don't ask me WHY I have issues, my sister's tank (in the same bloody house!) has HIGH pH issues. *boggles* Oh, the joys of fishkeeping!

~Meow. Thus spoke the cat.~