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Greetings~I have quite a situation, so I will try and give as many details as possible. Sorry if I bore you, but I am a newbie at this, and I know I have been exhausting my LFS, but feel like something is missing in the puzzle.
I have been lead to believe by my LFS that I the PH levels in my 10 gallon tank are way too high. I am cycling the tank in a way...My father bought the tank two months ago for my daughter while up on a visit. He set it up, got the fish and went back home to the other side of the state. I was only mildly interested at the time, as I was about to give birth any day to a new baby. Of course I had no idea of the complexities of having fish in your life. Well, as you can imagine all the fish died, I kept getting more, trying to figure things out~ testing the water etc......then I left the tank alone for three weeks... after all this took some water in to be tested, determined to get it right this time, and my LFS told me the PH was way too high. I was instructed to go home drain the tank and add fresh water before I got any fish. I did it, went back the next day and got 2 gold dust mollies, and 2 dalmation mollies, everyone looked happy in the tank, and so was I. The next morning we woke up to 15 babies, but that is another story. I noticed one of the mollies was acting "weird" hiding in a plant day and night so I began to worry, (can you see my interest rising??) went back to the store with my bag of water, and he said the PH was still too high, and sold me this PH regulator I was told to keep adding this every day till it went down, well it has been 3 days and it is not going down, and I am beginging to wonder about this method. No shells or anything is in there but aquarium gravel and artificial plants. In the meantime my gold dust molly is not looking good, clamped fins, and I think she has whitish fuzzies on her head (fungus?), and
I lost the other gold dust molly yesterday. so I call him up and he said to add more aquarium salt (it already is brakish). and come in tomorrow to get the fungicide because the fish is suffering form the high PH. I am really worried about the fish, and about adding to much stuff to the tank to mess up the cycle. I don't want to lose any more fish, and I also have the babies to consider, I feel like i have messed up the tank with all the things i have added. NOTE* I have the test stips and everything is coming up "safe" except for the PH. My PH test just gives a color which looks like it falls in the 7.6-7.8 range, it is blue in color on the Wardly mid-range Ph test. The water comes out perfectly neutral out of my tap, then seems to change ans it sits. Other products mentioned are "Neutral regulator" and "quick dip" strips. Don't worry, I will be upgrading my testing tools. Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Sorry this is so long, but I felt I needed to explain the whole situation.
ffwife

[font color="#000080"]Welcome to this new hobby!!! I'm sure you will love it!!!

Alright, get down to business.
What filter are you running on your 10G?
If you are running a HOB (hang-on-back) power filter,
then you can buy a bag of peat from your lfs and put it in the filter media,
it will do a great job in lowering your pH.

Or, you can use some of those (i can't remember which brand) pH powder.
What it does is set the pH at a specific level,
so you don't have to worry about a thing.
You can too, get them at your lfs.

a pH of 7.6 ~ 7.8 is not very high, and should be alright for fish.
but remember a pH of 7.7 has twice the amount of OH- ions than that of a pH of 7.6
try to keep your pH as constant as possible.

Best of luck,
Jimmy

thanks jimmy~ fast reply!!!!
i would have to say according to my trusty quick dip strips, that the PH is reading at 8.4, not 7.8. also, since my post, just a half an hour ago, the gold dust molly died, so i tested the water again, and i noticed that the KH reads close to 300?!. that does not seem good.
i don't know much about that yet....yipes!
yes i have a filter that hangs on back, and i will check into the peat filters.
cheers!!!!
ffwife

[span class="edited"][Edited by firefighterwife 2004-07-31 01:41][/span]

Hi,
Welcome to the forum, and to Fish Keeping.

Actually, you are dealing with two different problems.

The first is what we call the Nitrogen Cycle.
Fish waste, and food, creates ammonia which is very,
very, toxic to fish. Think of it as a really bad
diaper rash! Over time, bacteria develops in the tank
(living in the gravel and in the filter)
that breaks the ammonia down into nitrites. This
nitrite rich environment in turn allows another type
of bacteria to grow (feeding off the nitrites), also
toxic, but less than ammonia. The bacteria changes
the nitrites to nitrates which is also toxic over
certian levels, but "ok" at lower levels.

The Nirtogen Cycle takes about a month (sometimes
shorter, sometimes longer) to be complete, and you
indicated about 3 weeks of neglect just as the tank
was populated.

The nitrates are food for live plants, or algae.
The plants, and algae, break the nitrates down
into forms of Carbon and water and CO2 and some
O2.

You really, really, don't want algae in a freshwater
tank. So, live plants would be best. However, it is
probably too soon for you to get into that part of
aquariums. Pehaps the best for you now would be to
go to your Local Fish Store(LFS) and purchase some
(just a handfull) of a floating plant that you like
the looks of. The tank light should not be a light
bulb (incandescent) it should be flourscent. When its
time to purchase a replacement bulb go to the local
hardware store (home depot, etc) and purchase one
that is the same size and labled DAYLIGHT or SUNLIGHT.
They are far less expensive, and in some cases better
than the so called "plant" bulbs at the LFS. Run the
light for about 10 hours/day.

Top off the tank for evaporation each day and
change about 10% of the water each week. Pick a day,
and stick to that routine( as much as you can with
the new addition to the family [congratulations!]).
The water changes are your way of imitating
natures replenishment (rain). That will help keep
the water chemistries in line and safe.

The other problem is the high pH. Probably the
"soup" that was created as the tank is cycling
has caused the increase in pH. The water changes
and sparce feeding should bring things back into
line over time.

As far as the fish. The babies were born into that
environment, and the adults were not used to it.
Chances are that if you do regular water changes, feed
sparingly (non hits the bottom of the tank) and put
some floating plants in the tank, the babies should
reach maturity, and you begin to wonder what you are
going to do with their babies!

By the way, THE most common problem (mistake) everyone
makes is over feeding. A fish's stomach is no bigger than
it's eye! Only a flake or two/fish is fine for them.

Frank


[span class="edited"][Edited by FRANK 2004-07-31 12:20][/span]

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

great advice!!
so you think i can handle a floating plant???
any kind is ok??? sounds good!
even thoough i have done several water changes, the ph remains the same. i even did one yesterday, and it is still high. do you guys think i need to keep putting in the ph regulator????
thanks!!
lisa

Hi,
Yes any true floating plant should do fine.
As far as the pH regulator is concerned, once
one starts with additives, instead of fixing the
problem, they are pretty much stuck with purchasing
and using the stuff for as long as the problem
persists.

If you do decide to use it, do not lower the pH
any more than 0.2 over a 24 hour period. That
allows the fish to acclimate to the new pH.
Do it slowly, is the key phrase.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

pH swings are more dangerous than extreme pH's. The fish can adapt and survive quite well in a high pH, some better than others, and i believe mollies will be fine in a pH such as yours.

If i was in your situation, i would not bother with this pH regulator, or the peat. The biggest issue for you at present (i don't even consider the pH an issue, the LFS is telling you fibs, your pH is not that bad) is your cycle.

Okay, the LFS may not be telling fibs, just misinforming you. A pH of 8.2 is not that bad, if the pH was up in the 8.8's or higher i would be concerned. But Mollies can cope with hard water, and higher pH's. They can even adapt to living in pure salt water! So don't stress.

Click here for the profile on Mollies - Notice the pH range? A Molly could cope with a higher pH than even the profile says.

(The information about Molly care and such is not very good, they are okay with beginners, and do not need algae to 'survive'.)

Okay i have two concerns, and these are the cycling process which your tank is going through at present, and the testing equipment you have. I would not use test strips, they are regarded on this forum as quite dodgy. I would recommend Hagen and Aquarium Pharmaceutical test kits. They are of good quality, and rather reliable.

Fish and most other aquatic organisms produce a waste product called ammonia. Ammonia is a quite toxic chemical, and will accumilate in our aquariums quite quickly and potentially kill our fish. Luckily for us, there is a species of bacteria which will feed on ammonia as a food source, and they use this ammonia and make a waste product called 'nitrite'. Nitrites are quite toxic themselves, but fortunately there is another species of bacteria which will devour these nitrites and they produce another waste product called nitrates. These are different to nitrites, and are much less toxic. Non-toxic so to speak, unless they are allowed to accumilate into concentrations of above 100ppm, then they can become a concern.

This is the major reason why you need to do water changes, to reduce this level of the final product nitrate. Water changes also help replenish the water's buffering agents, which help stablise the pH and remove other unwanted byproducts fish and the micro-flora of the tank create.

Your tank has a KH (carbonate hardness) value of 17 (300ppm) and this is rather high. KH is the measure of the concentration of carbonate ion in your water. Carbonates are slighly alkaline, and will raise the pH. They are also called buffers, because they will neutralise acids (such as carbonic acid which forms when carbon dioxide dissolves in water). They are essential in maintaining a stable aquarium environment for our fish. You however have an excess level of KH. This is not drastically bad, but could potentially shorten your fishies life spans. The excess carbonate could be comming from two sources, one is the tap water, and two is the decoration and objects found in your tank.

One way to test if any objects in your tank is leeching carbonates into the water is to remove them, pat them dry with a towel, and pour a tiny bit of vinegar onto them. If they bubble, it is a sure sign carbonates within the object. Rinse the object abit, then put it back into your aquarium. If it does bubble/fizz, maybe it would be best if you do not put it back into the aquarium.

Your gravel may well be the source of the carbonates also, so vinegar test a sample of the gravel also.

Would it be possible to test the KH of the tap water also?

Sorry for the long post, and congratulations on the new member of the family!

-- Gomer

great~
i will get right on thoses tests. right now, i only have the test stips that measure for the KH, but i will upgrade. i went to a different lfs today to get the floating palnts and to get my H2O checked and he did not find any nitrates/nitrites. he said nothing looked to dangerous,even the ph, and maybe the tank has not started to cycle yet, but still, i have lost two fish in a matter of four days. one of my dalmation mollies has me worried now because he has been hanging at the bottom with his finns clamped. there is about 4 tbls. of aquarium salt in there right now.
i am becomming obsessed!!!
ffwife

It sounds like you are in the earliest stages of the cycle. That is ammonia is becoming abundant, and we are waiting for the reaction of the nitrifying bacteria which consume this ammonia.

Oh and i forgot to ask, and i cannot remember if you said so, but do you have a heater, and what temperature is it set at? Any temp between 20C and 28C (68F and 82F) should be fine, with 24 or 26 optimum.

Rapid temperature shifts can be very stressful to fish, and they can often fall ill as a result.

Well, usually i am against adding too many chemicals and additives to our tanks and these include pH up and down products which contain acidic or alkaline salts, pH buffering agents (exception to peat) but i am all for a product named Cycle made by Hagen. It is labelled New and Imporved Cycle, and contains dormant nitrifying bacteria (the strands which consume and convert ammonia to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate), and i believe this product may be of some use to you. It will speed up the cycling process, and help reduce the ammonia and nitrite spikes you will encounter.

But this product is not necessary, but it will help.

Another bacterial additive product, which is held higher in regard to alot of members of this forum is BioSpira, but i am not sure of its availability. But this is considered even better than Cycle.

In my opinion the vital test kits for this hobby are pH, Ammonia, Nitrite and KH/GH (Carbonate Hardness and General Hardness). Nitrate is a very useful test also.

-- Gomer

thanks so much. i am going to try and digest all of this, and take a day off from visiting my lfs. hopefully they all will make it. with all this talk, it is so hard to tell what the real problem is. oh yeah, i have a heater at 78-80. i did a 20 percent H2O change yesterday. wait a week then????
thanks again!!!!!
ffwife

i am not sure about the price of your test kits there. but the dips are rather expensive if i am correct. i would suggest you to buy a box of the combined kits for 19.99, which contains ph, gh, kh, nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, and chlorine. main ones you will NEED is ammonia, pH and probably nitrate.

one more advice... in fish keeping, you'll do EVERYTHING slowly, gradualy, and gently. including feeding, adding fish, changing water chemistry, cleaning, except when you need to catch them you can be fast]