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wasn't stating that adding filtration was the solution rather that adding surface area for more biological (bacterial) filtration was the solution. Then the bacteria would be able to break down more of the nitrites and your tank would cycle.

Adding more biological filtration is not going to help with a nitrate concentration at 200 ppm (and quiet possibly higher). The concentration gradient between the nitrite and nitrate is not favorable for the efficent growth of the bacteria. You can add all the filtration you want and it may help right now but it's just a matter of time before the same thing happens again.

As far as the buffer is concerned I have said that adding crushed coral is the solution because calcium carbonate (the main Chemical composition in crushed coral) will add the buffer that your tap water cannot.

Again, another bandaide fix for this situation. What is the Carbonate Hardness out of the tap? If the KH is low out of the tap then adding crushed coral would be beneficial. In this case, however, I believe the low alkalinity and resulting low pH are do to the acid build up from the bioload of the tank.

There is nothing wrong with doing 25-50% water changes bi-weekly.

I agree. My oscar tank get 35% water changes weekly (as do the rest of my tanks).

Another thing that will help lower your ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites is to try and only feed every other day. Only feed as much as the fish can eat in three minutes and scoop the rest out. This will help reduce the amount of waste in the tank.

I also agree with this. The less rotting food in the tank the better (it should be no rotting food), especially with the current state of the tank.

How you deside to handle your tank is up to you. All I can do is offer advice. If it were my tank, I would try to fix the problem at the source so that this same problem doesn't happen in the future.

"So I guess the next step is to prepare the 29g tank & separate the fish".

Ok, if you have a filter for the 30 gal, what I suggest for now is put it on your big tank, and leave your fish where they are for a month.. Do the every other day 20% water changes as I suggested in my earlier post.. To lower the nitrates a bit at a time for the least stress to the fish and bacteria.

This will allow your new filter to build up a good amount of good bacteria.. And allow your 55 to also build up more good bacteria. When the month hits.. Your fish will be more used to the water changes.. Put your smaller filter onto the 30 and do a 40% water change in your 55, put the water from your 55 into the 30.. Top off with fresh water.. If you have some NIC or Bio Spira, a bit of that may also help at this time.. You might be able to prevent a cycle in this way.

I would say your fish are accustomed to the ph of the water, so let it be.. Also, Bluegills are directly related to sunfish, and I've seen both grow over 8 inches in the wild when eating their natural diet, which includes everything from bugs, larvae, small baitfish to plant matter.. (they will love earthworms, wash them well)
It's good to vary their diet like you are..
They bred in your tank, maybe they will breed again !
If you had your nitrates tested at the store, buy a nitrate test kit. Then you can keep levels where you want them and develop a proper water change schedule.

Good luck with your fish and if you need more help you know where we are

[span class="edited"][Edited by DaFishMan 2004-09-08 22:43][/span]

The Amazon Nut...

I'd like to thank everyone for your replies and opinions.
Let me start off my stressing the importance of each and every fish & pet I own...Many of you asked whether or not I've grown attached to the fish so that it would be easier to return them to the ps. Well, returning them is out of the question! However, I do have an empty 29-gallon, and I will be moving the sunfish family to this tank to reduce the bioload in the 55g.
While I understand the concerns regarding overstocking, I have to agree with lil-fishy that if the fish are all responsive, active, and happy then it is okay. But the Bioload is a problem.
My fish vary in sizes. The mamma & pappa Bluegills are approx. 4-5 inches long each, the baby is 1/2-in., the catfish is 3 inches, the pleco is about 5 inches, and the oscar is 8-9 inches. While the baby bluegill and the Oscar are expected to grow bigger, the others are not.
I believe all the fish are quite strong to survive this quality of water, and none show any sign of distress.
I thought perhaps they've all grown accustomed to the water? Is that possible?
I have one Aqua-Tech power filter that came with the tank when I bought it.
I do not feed them more than 1x daily, and only feed how much they can eat within 2-3 minutes.
I used to buy feeder fish (i.e. guppies and goldfish) frequently for the Oscar & the Sunfishes enjoyed them, too. But I've stopped buying them since I thought that was contributing to the ammonia level and I noticed their waste was a lot bigger when they were eating live fish. But their diet now includes pellets, frozen shrimp, and bloodworms.
So I guess the next step is to prepare the 29g tank & separate the fish. I am so proud and happy that these fish are all doing so good, that the Baby bluegill survived, that they all seem happy & healthy, etc. Yet it appears their happiness will not last long if I do not improve quality of the water.
Any more help is greatly appreciated.

The price diff is due to the Canadian - U.S. exchange rate.
You say 'he' I have corrected that in my post. Note on his avatar, he has chosen the female symbol.

And if you did read my post I did suggest NIC or the other product for biological help.. One year is just starting out.. I've been keeping fish since I was about 7 yrs old (2 years seriously), I'm now 32, and just learning the proper essentials the last 2 years or so. So appreciate how much your friend has to learn to provide a proper healthy home for his fish.. Bandaids such as adding another filter to a grossly overpopulated tank is not the solution here and won't solve the problem. Once all the current fish grow full size the tank will have a bioload equivalent of 5 oscars. Which is just suicide. The oscar will start trying to kill off the other fish to try and save itself if it can. If it's healthy enough.

I'm done with this 'debate'. Ask any long term member if HeineKatts tank is highly overstocked or not. HeineKatt good luck and if you need help, send me a pm.. Ill-Kat I know your intentions are good. Let me know what HeineKatt does (pm) I noticed he hasn't checked in here lately.
Thanks


The Amazon Nut...

He's been in the hobby for a year. Still new but by no means a beginner. Depending on what filtration he has he shouldn't spend anywhere near $400. In fact to start over completely new, with the filtration I suggested, would cost $185.93. I disagree still about the point that adding biological filtration will not help. I refuse to accept that because I have seen it work on my tanks. In fact he could buy the new Bio-Cartridges for the emperor's which would help further.
2-Emperor 400's--39.99 x 2 = 79.98
Magnum 250--39.99 = 39.99
Bio-Cartridges (for emperors) 8.99 x 4 = 35.96
shipping = 12.00
Grand Total = 185.93

If you decide not to buy the Bio Cartridges and just the regular filters your cost will go down by $26.47 with a new grand total of $159.46 all ordered from Bigal'sonline.com. If you put this filtration on your tank coupled with the advice I gave earlier. I can gurantee when it cycles you won't have another problem with ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. Even with the fish you have now. I think this is the last time I will post here. I've given my opinion and others have given their's. I think you have enough opinions now to make a decision. Good luck and enjoy the hobby.

ill-fishy - YOU ARE A SUCCESSFUL FISHKEEPER ! lol
Sorry, I edited it out by accident..

It's just that HeineKatt is just starting out in the hobby and the best thing to do is keep it simple..
He should not run out and buy $400. worth of filtration or more tanks I don't think.. You have to master the basics of water quality with one tank before adding more tanks or packing the one tank with fish.
Walk before you run. That's all.
My guitar teacher said this to me once....
KISS = Keep it simple stupid !

And yes bluegills are coldwater fish and if you keep just those it would be a good idea to slowly adjust the temp down, then remove the heater... I think it's amazing that they bred in there.





[span class="edited"][Edited by DaFishMan 2004-09-04 16:12][/span]

The Amazon Nut...

FishMan what happened to the part about me being a successful fishkeeper? I think that part got deleted. No offense taken. As I stated in both of my original posts people generally tend to disagree with me on this subject. I just don't think that there is a ratio per gallons of water or standard to go by. Generally, The activity of the fish, if proper setup is taken, will tell you how to respond. Also, note in my post that I suggested getting a larger tank depending on the size of the fish. I think it is unfortunate that everytime I read a post like this the first response people get is get rid of fish. I agree that there is a limit to how much you can keep in a tank. I just don't think it is as low as everyone likes to assume. I see too many posts where wrong advice is given and people lose out on some of the pleasures of fishkeeping. Anyway, I think that if I wouldn't have gone against the grain on this particular post the attention and advice that has been given now probably wouldn't have happened. There are now two options both of which in my opinion are valid. It really depends on how much work you want to do and money you want to spend. My approach will set you back in dollars and time but you should be able to keep the majority of your fish. The other approach is to start over from scratch get rid of all your fish but have a well cycled and ready aquarium. I guess the ultimate question is how much do you enjoy your fish. By the way a topic that hasn't really been touched on is the keeping of oscars with the sunfish. sunfish generally are not a warm water species like oscars which are found in South America. They are more of a cool water species found all the way up in Canada. If you decide to get rid of one or the other make sure to dedicate the tank to fish with the same temp. requirements.

ill fishy..
It's not good to encourage others to overcrowd their tanks, no offense..

Heine Katt

First of all, welcome to the site and it's a good sign of concern for your fish that you bought a test kit AND joined this site. There is hope. I will stick to the basics right now and so should you.

First, you have to get rid of most of your fish.
The OVERSTOCKING problem in your tank is easily fixed.

One oscar needs a 55 gal tank MINIMUM.
You can keep one oscar in a 55.
In time, you would either become very attached to your oscar, or get really bored with just having one fish. Decide if you want just one fish, or a variety of fish.
I have kept several oscars as well as other fish, for years. This does not make me expert.. Which is why I'm only getting into basics with you. Next, the options...

OPTION 1
Keep the oscar only.

OPTION 2
Keep the sunfish family only.

OPTION 3
Keep the catfish only if you can determine the species and the max full grown size is not past 12 inches. If they only grow to 6 inches then keep the baby blugill also.

Options 1, 2, and 3 is for if you keep some or one of your fish. All are high bioload fish (eat a lot, poop alot, messy eaters - lots of waste)

You may have to add another filter to your setup, depending on which one you have right now.

OPTION 4
Get rid of all of them, replace with smaller fish that have lower bioload, research them first, how large they will be when full grown.

Chemicals to kill ammonia etc - you are using man-made chemicals to get rid of natural chemicals. Eliminate the source of natural chemicals (overstocking).. Man-made chemicals will remain and build up in your tank.
The less of those, the better.

Feed once a day right now, no more than can be eaten in a few minutes. Feed a pinch, wait until it's gone, then add the next pinch.

Your immediate action plan:
PHASE 1
Determine what you're keeping,
take the rest to the store NOW.

Start 20% water changes every other day for the next 2 weeks. The only chemicals I would add is either NIC (New Improved Cycle) or Bio Support. Add dechlorinator
to all new water added, if your home is on town water.
Put the other chemicals in a bag and forget them.

We need to know what type and model of filter you have. When all this is done, we'll start assisting you with phase 2.

Phase 2 - complete water test again, all parameters as well as address the ph issue and other concerns..

This is just advise, the rest is up to you. Good luck !











[span class="edited"][Edited by DaFishMan 2004-09-03 20:15][/span]

The Amazon Nut...

if its not close to lethal then it very close. and yes in this tank weekly water changes are needed.

I have had a 55g freshwater tank for one year with: 1 Oscar, 2 Bluegills (Sunfishes) & their 3-month old Baby Bluegill, a Catfish and a Pleco algae-eater.
This is the first time I've had any problem with the quality of the water. Not only do I have a problem, I have several...
I used to have a Gar, who sadly died about a month ago. I then began testing the Ammonia level regularly, & it still remains high (6.0 to 7.0). I have been making water changes bi-weekly (25-50%) and clean the tank monthly (50-75%), and have tried adding Ammo-Carbs, Ammonia Detox, Amquel+, Stress Zyme, and a few other like products.
Then I used a Multi-Test kit which revealed the following levels:
Nitrate = 200 (unsafe)
Nitrite = 5.0 (Danger)
Hardness = 150 - 300 (Hard - Very Hard)
Alkalinity = 0 (Low)
pH = 6.2 (Acidic)
I also tested the tap water for all the above, and everything came out normal.
I am very worried about my fishes and do not know what are the best steps to take to correct this.
Any advice or references are greatly appreciated!

I don't mean to be repetitive but since there seems to be some argument here, I'll just reinforce a few points:

That 55 gallon tank is overstocked.

I have had a 55g freshwater tank for one year with: 1 Oscar, 2 Bluegills (Sunfishes) & their 3-month old Baby Bluegill, a Catfish and a Pleco algae-eater...I used to have a Gar, who sadly died about a month ago."

IMO there is no way you could have these fish in a 55 gallon tank and NOT have it be overstocked.

Please, stop wasting your money on all of those chemicals and filtration "fixes" that really don't address the REAL issue here. Your tank is not big enough for those fish. Find them new homes or consider purchasing a few extra large tanks to acommodate them all.

Sorry to put it so bluntly, but that's really the only option I can see here.

EDIT: greenmonkey, 5.0 ppm Ammonia is NOT lethal at this pH. The test kit MAY be off, but it could very well be accurate.

[span class="edited"][Edited by trystianity 2004-09-03 02:40][/span]

Like I said earlier I usually don't agree with what other people consider to be overstocked. I have to disagree with GreenMonkey and Filoviridae. In my 55 I have had 2 oscars, a large common Pleco, and four catfish. My water quality was always fine. My fish were always happy and responsive. After about two years I would say that you will have to move up in tank size. But depending on your fish size you could be just fine. I also have to disagree with Filoviridae on the points made about adding filtration. I wasn't stating that adding filtration was the solution rather that adding surface area for more biological (bacterial) filtration was the solution. Then the bacteria would be able to break down more of the nitrites and your tank would cycle. As far as the buffer is concerned I have said that adding crushed coral is the solution because calcium carbonate (the main Chemical composition in crushed coral) will add the buffer that your tap water cannot. All I'm trying to do is let you know that you have options. Too many times I read on boards that people say tanks are overstocked and that you need to get rid of your fish. If your fish look healthy and responsive after you fix your problem, then you are fine. Another thing that will help lower your ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites is to try and only feed every other day. Only feed as much as the fish can eat in three minutes and scoop the rest out. This will help reduce the amount of waste in the tank. I also have to disagree once again with greenmonkey. There is nothing wrong with doing 25-50% water changes bi-weekly. In fact tests have shown that fish will grow much quicker if you do. Like I said before, I usually go against the grain with these types of posts but you do have options.

[span class="edited"][Edited by 2004-09-03 01:01][/span]

that test kit is off 5.0 is deadly. its not the bio-filter the tank is OVERSTOCKEDyou can only the oscar or a single bluegill. then you will need to have enough filtration to circulate the tank 10x a hour. these are all things that must happen immediately as the fish are probably in pain suffering. you will also need to stop doing such large water changes. 25% a week should be good enough but no more than 35% a week

[span class="edited"][Edited by greenmonkey51 2004-09-03 07:36][/span]

it shows that your bio filter isn't working, consider adding another filter which it's primary target is to build up bacterial colonies....use high quality substrates such as Eheim's substrate.

and more whater changes...bi-weekly for those heavy load fishes aren't good enough...avoid using ammo sorb this kind of thing..a well establised tank never use these money eating things..stress zyme is good enough

and your fish are so strong...with such levels of toxics they still alive

My recommendation for you would be to lesson the bioload on the tank. I would return at the very least, the oscar and the catfish or pleco. Adding more filtration is not going to solve the problem in this case. There are simply too many fish in the tank. The oscar alone is more than enough for that tank. The low alkalinity has been caused by the organic acids (naturally produced by the fish and in the break down of fish waste) reacting with the buffer in the water. There is only so much buffer in the water and after a while it can be used up and the amount being added with water changes is not enough to keep up with the amount produced. The ammonia and nitrite that you are seeing is due to the fact that the other things in the water (dissolved organic compounds, nitrate, etc) are interfering with the bacteria' ability to break down the nitrite. There comes a point when the relative concentrations of the food source to the waste product results in the bacteria being unable to utilize the food source effectively. I could go into a long explaination on how and why(I am a microbiologist after all) but it's a bunch of technical mumbo-jumbo and would take forever to type.

Like I said previously, my recommendation would be to remove most of the fish from the tank. Problems like this do sneak up on you. The tank seems great and then all of a sudden the water quality takes a nose dive. You could just put another filter on, but it's like puting a bandaide on your right arm when your left's been ripped off. In other words it's not solving the problem and it will happen again.

Best of luck.

More importantly what types of filters do you have on your tank. I think you need more Biological filtration. On my 55 I have 2-Emperor 400's. These are great for Biological filtration because they have Bio-wheels, secondly they have media trays (the little grey things that fit inside the filter). I fill the media trays with batting from pillows. This gives the bacteria a good place to colonize. I also use the standard carbon pads that are made for the filter. However, I never change them. In fact I don't even use Carbon anymore. Really you don't need to as long as you perform proper tank maintenance. These filter pads also provide a good spot for bacteria to colonize. In addition to the 2-Emperor 400's I use a magnum 250 with Bio-batting in the inside chamber. The sleeve that sorrounds the chamber and the bio batting are another good place for bacteria. If you make a setup like this I can almost guarantee that your ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites will disappear. I also would suggest using the water conditioner called "Prime" as it locks up ammonia and chloramines. I disagree that you have too many fish. However, I generally go against the norm when it comes to that stuff so do whatever you like. It sounds like you need more Biological filtration. As far as the PH is concerned. Do you have any driftwood in the tank? That would be an obvious source for acid. When I had a little problem controlling my PH which was acidic like yours I put crushed coral in the media trays of my emperors. (Just a reminder the grey trays) Crushed coral is basic in nature and will naturally buffer your tank up and is a more natural approach. So my advice is this. Don't give your fish away. Get 2-Emperor 400's and fill half of the grey trays with crushed coral and the other half with pillow batting(by half I mean one whole trey filled with batting and one whole trey filled with crushed coral). This should over time help to adjust your water quality. The only problem that I see is that the crushed coral will add to the hardness of your water by adding calcium carbonates into the water. Although with where your standing hardness is the least of your problems. The cheapest place I have ever found Emperor 400's is at this site http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=22137;category_id=1721
Good luck and if you have any more questions don't be afraid to PM me.

The only thing that will fix the problem is to return your fish. All your fish have huge bio-loads, and none of them can fit in a 55 gallon. What kind of pleco and catfish do you have? Your LFS might give you some store credit or cash for them.