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I don't know about live plants. One day I might try them but really, I like the plastic ones. How oftem do you gravel vac and water change. a 10-20% weekly is a good shedule, and it does not hurt to do it before the tank cycles. When I started my tank I put six harlequin rasboras in there and it was over two weeks before it completely cycled.

Hi,
I hope I caught you before you tear the tank down.
The fish undoubtedly died because of the high
ammonia and nitrite levels.

Let's review your knowledge of the "Nitrogen Cycle."
Once you position your tank, dump in the gravel, pour
in the water, and stir in the fish, you begin the cycle.
As the fish eat, they eliminate waste. That waste along
with excess fish food, begins to decay and creates
Ammonia.

Ammonia, if it reaches a certian point, acts just like
urea does on a babies butt, the ammonia burns
the skin and creates diaper rash, which can be serious.
On fish, it burns the gills and interfers with the
exchange of oxygen, and it affects the protective
mucus coating on the fish, leaving the scales and skin
under the scales open for burning and infection.

Usually the fish keeper tests for ammonia, and if it
reaches a critical level, they do a SMALL water change
to dilute the ammonia level. As the ammonia appears
in the water, bacteria begin to form (slower than the
ammonia builds up) that use the ammonia as food and
change the ammonia to NITRITE.

Nitrite too, over a certian level, is just as dangerous
to fish, interfers with the exchange of oxygen, and can cause infection.
Again the fish keeper should do SMALL (10-20%) water
changes to dilute the nitrites.
As nitrites begin to appear "eating" the ammonia,
the ammonia will peak and then drop off as the bacteria
catches up with the ammonia and creates nitrites. Now
the nitrites will begin to peak, and ammonia levels
drop to zero on the test kits.

As nitrites begin to appear another bacteria begins to
grow that changes nitrites to NITRATES.
As that bacteria grows, living off the nitrites,
the ammonia will stay at zero, and the nitrite level will
peak and drop off, and the Nitriate level will rise.

Soon both the ammonia and nitrite levels well be zero and
the nitrates be the only thing that registers.
Watch the nitrate levels. Most fishkeepers, will change
some of the water (10-20%) weekly to keep the nitrates
diluted (0-15ppm). Too high and again the fish begin
to suffer, and Algae, which just LOVES nitrates, will
begin to thrive, feasting on the high nitrate levels in
the tank.

When ammonia and nitrite levels drop to Zero, then the
tank is said to be cycled and ready for the fish.
However, you cycled the tank with fish, and put them
through the wringer so to speak. The remaining fish
are really hardy, and you can replace the dead ones
as you like.

As you should have gathered. THE SOLUTION is NOT to
change out the water, clean the tank, and start the
whole process over again. You need to do some water
changes to dilute the ammonia and nitrate levels,
feed the fish, and TEST, TEST, TEST.

Continue the process of testing (daily is good)
twice a day is even better and small water changes,
until the ammonia is zero and the nitrite is zero.
Depending upon the size of the tank, and quantity,
and size of the fish in the tank, it can take a
couple of weeks for a tank to cycle.

Once a new tank is cycled, if you add more than a couple
of fish, it will go through what is called a "mini cycle"
as the bacteria colonies grow to handle the increased
waste from the new fish. A tank is not truly "Seasoned"
till it has been running over a year, and then it is
ready for just about anything.

You actually have two other options to cycle a tank.
You can do a "fishless cycle" by adding pure, unscented,
ammonia to the tank, and test, test, test. The bacteria
will grow convert the ammonia, to nitrite, and more bacteria
will grow to convert the nitrite to nitrate. The thing is
with this form of cycling, you have to stay on it and keep
adding ammonia constantly till you see the ammonia spike
and drop off and the nitrite spike and drop off.
The ammonia is the "gas" that fuels the engine
(bacteria growth)

The other way to cycle a tank, is to position the tank,
dump in the gravel, pour in the water, plop in the fish
(acclimate them first!), and then stir in the latest
bio chemicals that "instantly" cycle the tank as you watch.
Obviously, the latter two methods are much "kinder" to
the fish.

I've not cycled a new tank in years so I don't remember
exactly what the name of the product is. I think it is
called BioSpira. But, I'm sure someone else reading your
thread (question) will be able to fill that part in.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 01-Jan-2005 10:06

Last edited by FRANK at 01-Jan-2005 10:16

Last edited by FRANK at 01-Jan-2005 10:17

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

i took the water to the local fish store today,nitrates were off the mark,the employe stated
your fish all died right?
yep,i wil not start over again,thanks to your artticle,i go an buy a nitrate test tomorrow,agaig at what point can i add more fish or live plants..thanks again so much

Hi,
I'm glad that I was able to help. When you purchase a
test kit, I would purchase one that will test the following:

pH you should know the pH of your water. 7.0 is considered
neutral, less than 7, acidic, and more than 7 alkaline.

GH General Hardness (GH) is the measure of how much
disolved minerals there is in the water. Generally
speaking tetras and other South American fish want
"soft water." African Rift fish want "hard" water.
North and Central American fish want moderately hard
water, as do most European fish. General Hardness is
measured in Degrees or parts per million.

KH Carbonate Hardness (KH) is the measure of how much
carbonate is disolved in the water. Carbonates act as
buffers, and are also measured in degrees of hardness,
or parts per million.

Ammonia was discussed in the earlier post.
Nitrite was discussed in the earlier post.
Nitrate was discussed in the earlier post.

Most "general" test kits, such as the FRESHWATER MASTER
TEST KIT by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc, test the pH,
Ammonia, nitrite, GH and KH. You would have to purchase
an "extra" test for nitrate.

Test your tap water first. Run the tap for a couple of
minutes and then capture, a glass full. Let it sit over
night, and then test the water for pH, KH, and GH.
That way you have a set of values for a base line.
Then, test your tank water. Many folks find that is
benificial to keep a log (notebook) in which they log
their weekly tests. That way trends are noticed, and
problems identified before they really become a problem.

As far as plants are concerned, you can pretty much add
plants durned near as soon as you put water in the tank.
In your case they will begin working on the tank water and
start to use up the nutrients. If you are going to use
fish to cycle the tank, then you should mention it to the
person at the fish store and they should give you a
couple of "hardy" fish that can handle the changing
water chemistries. Most will "take" them back after the
tank is cycled, if not, get something that you like and
would fit in with your future thoughts for the tank.
Don't get a couple of goldfish, when you are going to
keep tropicals for instance.

I'm not too sure of the crab in the tank. They are flesh
eaters, and some have been known to go after fish while
sleeping at night. But they are an oddity and are sold
for tropical tanks. That one is your call.

Hope this helped.
Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 02-Jan-2005 11:18

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Is it my imagination or did Aquarium Pharmaceuticals change the makeup of their Freshwater Master Test Kit:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4454&amp;N=2004+113074

It seems to me that it contained gH and kH, as well as Low/Hi pH, ammonia, nitrite. Then, as you stated Frank, the Nitrate was bought separately. I think they may have made a change in that. Either way, the link above will show you the kits Frank speaks of. If you can't get a kit, try to purchase one test kit each week, starting with ammonia and nitrite, if you don't have them. It will last you a good year. Some kits are expensive with strips in small numbers that go quickly. They are harder to read imho than the kits above.

I should add that site like Drs. Foster &amp; Smith can be much more economical, even with shipping costs, than getting them locally. I've seen that same kit as high as $28.00 and it sells for 18.99 here. You may not need to pay taxes too, if they don't have a store in your state, so that can compensate for shipping.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Jan-2005 23:10

fran i think im going to order the fw master test kit from the site listed above,will that kit work for me?
also the last pleco i had died today but the crab is still alive,

woke up this morning to find all but my crab DEAD.took water to lfs and they told me the tank was almost done cycling?true?
well,nitraits and nitrites were up and ph was good acording to the lfs,i just wana tear it all down and start over again.any suggestions?

Hi Guys,
Been a busy weekend. This is the kit that I purchased,
and was talking about:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4454&amp;N=2004+113074

I purchased the "master kit" and also the additional,
Nitrate kit. However, instead of getting it from
the site, I went three blocks over on the way back from
my daily trip to the bank, and bought them at PetsMart.
So, I paid too much

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

ok guys,just got back from the lfs and they said the following
nitrate=high
nitrite=0
ammonia=0
ph=7.8
with that i got a nitrate test and it tested 0ppm?
yellow in color whats going or..thanks guys ill be home all day.

ok i just ran the test again"nitrate" that is,
the card starts at 0ppm and goes to 160ppm,
this time i think i ran the test right and now its at between 20and 40 i think,should i do another water change,the only animal i have in the tank now is the crab,or mabey a gravel vac,ive heard that i can use biospira?is that right to bring the nitrates down hopefully get to add more fish soon

Dolphin,

Thanks for taking everyone's advice! It makes us smile when people actually listen...

If your ammonia is zero and your nitrites are zero and your tank has had critters in it, it is likely cycled. However that means that you can slowly, I repeat slowly, add fish. Adding too many fish at one time can create "mini-cycles" that are a spike in ammonia then a spike in nitrites.

Slow additions minimize those spikes as does the addition of live plants. However, it takes time for the plants to become established to draw on the nutrients in your tank. The good news is that they don't bother yopur bioload, you can add them now!

Mmm, by the way, your crab is probably not only a scavenger, it is also a predator. Active at night, it won't think twice about nabbing a sleeping fish.

Last edited by Bob Wesolowski at 04-Jan-2005 02:38

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Hi,
With those values (ammonia, nitrite) it indicates that
the tank has cycled, and its ok to add fish. Keep in
mind that the bacteria colonies have grown off the
ammonia that was in the tank. If you suddenly add
more than say, four two inch fish, then the sudden increase
of ammonia from the fish will cause a mini cycle as the
colonies grow to handle the increased waste. That is why
the caution about adding alot of fish at once.

Some times, you can't help it as the fish should be added
in schools, or groups. When you do that, then about two
days later, you would want to test for ammonia, and nitrite
and if you get any reading on either, then do a 10 or
20% water change. Wait a day or two, and repeat the process
until the values are again staying at zero. Wait until the
next weekend and then purchase additional fish as necessary.

What do you have for plants? If you are going to have
plants in the tank, then now is past time to place them
in the tank. A nitrate reading of 20 (be sure to wait
the five minutes for the reaction to be complete before
reading) is kinda high for a tank without plants. If it
stays that high, your next visitor will be algae, as you
have noticed something "grows to eat something, and
something else grows to eat that something, etc". Algae
will grow to eat the nitrates.


Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hey Frank - check that link of yours carefully. It shows a nitrate tester already in the kit. I was puzzled by this because, like you, I remember having to pick up an extra nitrate tester. They have eliminated the gH and kH testers from the master kit.

[hr width='40%']
You learned something important about testing: Follow the directions literally. Nitrate is one test you need to make sure you follow, with regards to time between chemicals added and the amount of shake time.

It's up to you, but I like to use nitrates to determine my water change schedule. Because you are in the process of stocking, it is a little different. Either way, I would do 2-3 partial water changes over the next few days to get the nitrates down to about 5ppm. I would be overly agressive with gravel vacs since the tank is young yet and bacterial colony is not yet robust. Just lightly hover over some areas where they may be food. The intent here, is to get the nitrates down to a lower level to start. If you target between 5-15 in a planted tank, that would be best.

Once your tank is fully stocked, consider using nitrates to dictate your water change schedule. In time, it will be less necessary to even test, once you understand your tank's behavior. When my tank was fully stocked, I made sure my nitrates were 5ppm, then checked 7 days later to see the value. If it was 15ppm, I did a water change to get it down to 5ppm again. I did this about 3 times to see how long of an interval my tank could go. You might find that you can go every 10 days. Then, back off to checking monthly to make sure that its not creeping upwards.

High nitrates - like &gt;40ppm won't kill most fish, nor will 100ppm or 160ppm for that matter. However, it does cause a general decline in health. One thing we know happens is that blood vessels dilate. Some fish can also be stressed if they go from a low nitrate tank, into a high nitrate tank. I bought fancy goldfish that showed all the symptoms associated to the roughly 200ppm nitrate tank they came from - tails with red streaks (varicose vein appearance). At a glance one may think it is septicemia. However, just two weeks in my low nitrate tank and the streaks disappeared.

ok,just got home took another reading "nitrate" and it read 5.0
heres what i got,the water is clear temp is 76D,crab is still alive im still running the activated carbon in the peng 400 hof,i have 3 small tufa rocks in the tank,how does this sound so far ,thanks to you all..and you sated that i could add a couple of fish now,what do you suggets?