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"The "Trick" is to read the opinions, see what
makes sense to them, and then try "it". If "it" works
then the solution was right for them and their tanks.
If not, then try another, or a blend of the opposing."

I'm trying to save the new or inexperienced hobbyist from making serious mistakes by "trying" this or that and discovering that they made a big mistake and lost trops.

Not a good way to do things, Frank, and you should know that.

What's the sense of giving good advice if a hobbyist can go out and "try" what the heck he or she wants and experiment until a happy result is gained.

I hope nobody takes your statement serious. I don't.

--garyroland.

Dear Victim...

Yes, I know there is a spike but there isn't anyone of significance around to experience it.

um, there is an ammonia spike with fishless cycling..

which is u adding amo

Last edited by victimizati0n at 21-Dec-2004 16:22

I limit my comments in this thread to new tanks and cycling those tanks by dosing ammonia, a bacterial food source...

The newer bacteria starters do work very efficiently, I've started a few tanks with the New Improved Cycle using a few fish at the beginning and following the suggested dosage thereafter.

I've also started a few tanks with ammonia with great success but find it to be, as reported by newbys, and I agree, very problematic due to overdosing the ammonia.

"The program" would be to save the newby some time and effort and dose the NIC or Bio Spira with a new tank, the easy way out, and eliminate trial and error.

--garyroland.

OK, this is a little off subject, but yes we debate the issues more than argue about them. But, yes Gary saying to "get with the program" does raise some eyebrows, so does telling someone their ideas are "barbaric".

Now to the subject, all these ideas and ways work. Just some work better for different people, and some don't work at all for others. Just keep in mind, that if it was not for the use of fish to do cycling in the first place, there would be no fish keeping at all. This is how it was originally done.

As for which does better? Well this is left up to the individual, and the multiple variances of thier setups and water qualities and such.

The reason there is so much debate over fish keeping, is because of all the variables with each different individual and their setup and water. So, this is why we try to always say, what may work for one person, may not work for another.

Yes, I have experience with bio-spira, and stand behind it 100%. It really does work. Now the NIC, I have not used, nor do I know anyone personally around here that has either. So I cannot comment on it.

As for H2O maybe being H1.5O, this is an impossability. As you cannot have a half of an elemental molecule. Half of and oxygen molecule, would make it a totally different elemental molecule, and depending on which half you use of the oxygen molecule, it could be several different things. It would have to be said as 2H3O. So, if you heard it said as H1.5O, then they told you wrong.

_____________________________________________________________

There is always a bigger fish...

Tammy: Here here!

Gary: You seem to like to badger random people, by telling us to "get with the program". All the while, to others, you using fish to cycle, feels outdated to US.
Things are learned, and boundries are made by trial and error, whether in a home setting, or a lab.
No we do not incourage people to risk their fish by trying something off the wall. But I do think, urging people to plop in fish while your tank is cycling is barbaric, the act is barbaric.

Gary....

What is more safe for a fish than not subjecting it to ammonia and nitrite spikes?

Bacteria starters are great but they do not insure that the fish are not going to be subjected to some level of ammonia and nitrite during the cycling process _and_ ANY level can have lasting negative effects on a fish.

There is far less trial and error involved with doing a fishless cycle then there is by cycling a tank any other way EXCEPT for instantly cycling a tank by seeding it from other existing tanks.

You act as if there is no "trial and error" using Bacteria Starters. Time and time again we have seen where people have ran into trouble because they dosed their tanks using these starters only to find out later that they STILL need to have an adequate supply of ammonia entering the water to sustain and build on to the bacteria used to start the tank.

You have your methods that work for you and I respect that. I have my methods that work for me and by golly you should respect that as well and not try to turn people off to them.

I will always use fishless cycling when necessary and I can guarantee you one thing, my fish will never suffer any ill effects from the cycling process. Can you guarantee the same thing cycling your tanks?

All those instant cycling products are nice and all, but I have never really used one which instantly cycled my tank. At best, things might have happened quicker than they would otherwise. Those products might soon also be a thing of the past, like letting water sit for a while to get rid of the chlorine... That's because a team researchers (Hovanec et al) claim now that the Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter bacteria are not the ones responsible for nitrification, but other bacteria called Nitrospira (bio-spira is based on the findings of this research. If anyone has any experience with biospira, I personally would love to hear about it). Others researchers disagree, by the way, but I hope they do it politely.

On top of that, other researchers found out that the water molecule's formula is not really H2O, but something more like H1.5O. They claim that all our theories about water chemistry will have to be updated and changed. Let's see how that affects our fish

My point? Something like Frank's. When I got my first fish none of the books mentioned anything about ammonia or nitrites (and only serious scientists have heard of the internet). We let the water sit for a day until the chlorine escaped and we threw our fish in and that was how cycling was done (looking back now, I must admit that I'm amazed that I didn't lose that many fish). In a few years' time we might look back at our methods today and find them so primitive (and be amazed that we didn't lose that many fish). In other words, fishkeeping is a matter of trial and error even if we do everything by the book(s) and follow every advice we are given.

I heard bio-spira was like instant cycling, but NIC is definitely not. Even with NIC you can still get high ammonia spikes when cycling that dangerous to some fish.

The original post was about fishless cycling and dosing ammonia to accomplish the task...

My reply was dosing ammonia is a waste of time and problematic, not to mention time consuming.

Why, in the name of good fishkeeping, would anyone want to dose ammonia when almost-instant bacteria starters are available on the market and safe??

Trial and error is rather outdated and can be dangerous when dealing with live trops.

The Hospital Forum is full of trial and error results from those who didn't know what they were doing.

Hit-and-miss fishkeeping is not the way to go if that is what you're promoting.

--garyroland.

Hi

Lets see - I believe in my post I noted the following:
Quote:
Light. ( 10,000K + for freshwater planted tanks)
Salt to use regularly or not
UGFs use or not, good or bad
Substrates: Sand, or gravel, or.... (flourite, echo
Complete, and others, etc)
CO2 Injection Run 24/7 or shut off at night
EndQuote.

I probably should have also mentioned fishless cycling.

Years ago when we were first learning about the nitrogen
cycle and making it a part of our everyday vocabulary,
there were two ways to cycle a tank.

You purchased a cheap, hardy, fish or two or three, and
tossed them into the tank and forgot about them. Some
were lost to the various spikes (ammonia, nitrite,)
and the rest survived. Once the tank was deemed "safe"
you tried to give the durned survivors back to the
petshop for the next person, and bought the fish that
the tank was purchased for.

Or, you dumped the gravel into the tank, filled the tank
with water and then added ammonia.
AND - Be sure, you used the unscented stuff
(at first that warning was not necessary
because it didn't exist). You tested, frequently, if you
were responsible, or once or twice a day (morning/night)
if you had other things to do. And when the tank was
deemed "safe" then you went out and purchased the fish
you wanted.

Now, you can dump the gravel in the tank, fill with water
stir in the latest chemical, Bio(Whatever) stir gently,
and add fish.

Any way works, and accomplishes the same end result, a
completely cycled tank ready for fish. The thing is,
why sacrifice fish in the name of the cycle, or why
waste days and days using foul smelling ammonia when
all you have to do is add something and stir gently.

Pick up the gauntlet Gary. Everything I said is right
and you know it. Everyone of us with experiance is trying
to save the new person from making our mistakes.

The fact remains, when you tell someone not to touch
the wet paint, some are going to try. Everytime you tell
someone that something is hot, they are going to see
if it really is.

And,
Every time you say something will not work, is no good,
or should not use it, I bet ya someone has will prove
you wrong. Like being successful with high demand plants
in less than a watt of light. Or has used nothing but
a UGF for decades in the same tank (me).

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 20-Dec-2004 18:45

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

i think i have a theory why a fishless cycle would be faster. i think its because there is no ammonia spike is that correct

Very well put frank.

There will be no right or wrong way for absolutly everything. I suppose the closest we have to fish vets here would be the professionals who have been keeping and breeding in this hobby for many many years.
But you'll find, that even between the professionals of fish and fur pets, there is descrepancy, and there always will be.
I will be a constant learning, and changing process for everyone.

Hi,
I don't think I have seen any examples of arguing, especially
from the folks who have been around the site
for a while.
What I do see are very strong opinions, generally based
upon experiance, and some based upon knowledge gained from
books or lab work on various topics.

Some of the hot topics are:

Light. ( 10,000K + for freshwater planted tanks)
Salt to use regularly or not
UGFs use or not, good or bad
Substrates: Sand, or gravel, or.... (flourite, echo
Complete, and others, etc)
CO2 Injection Run 24/7 or shut off at night

All these and many others are sure to raise pro and con
comments. "Airing" these out can lead to frustration
to someone new to the hobby or who expects that there
is only one correct answer.
The fact is that with experiance, the hobbiest will
find that there is more than one answer, and "right"
one depends upon the variables contained in THEIR
system (home, water, personal habits, fish, and many,
many others).
The "Trick" is to read the opinions, see what
makes sense to them, and then try "it". If "it" works
then the solution was right for them and their tanks.
If not, then try another, or a blend of the opposing.

Just MY opinion (For what its worth)

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 20-Dec-2004 12:48

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Past observation of old threads will reveal all kinds of "fishless" cycling problems using pure ammonia...

Most, maybe because they just didn't understand the procedure, overdosed the ammonia and had to either wait until the bacteria caught up with the food source or they had to dilute the tank water.

Meantime, untold testing was taking place to discover what the process was doing bacterially.
-----
To answer the off-target observation that we "argue" about subjects here on FP; nothing could be further from the truth.

We "debate", not argue. Most of our members are above arguing about a certain subject but they do present their opinions and beliefs which sets this Site above many others.

--garyroland.

I use NIC *cycle*, fish food, and eshtablished filter media to cycle my tanks. I like it, it works, doesn't take excessively long, and most importantly I don't have to worry about killing a fish during the cycle, or having to get rid of a fish(es) when my cycle is done.

With a fishless cycle there is an ammonia spike but you control it and not at the expense of harming any fish.

Fishless cycling is quicker because you control how soon you achieve each stage of the cycling process. So in essence, Books is right.

Fishless Cycling is no more e to mistakes than any other form of cycling a tank. Actually, less e to making any mistakes that could result in harming the fish. Now isn't that what we all strive for?

To each his or her own. Let's remember that.

Last edited by Tammy at 20-Dec-2004 07:54

Where's the arguement?
I use aquaclear filters with multiple sponges wherever possible. this gives me pre cycled sponges to use in new tanks.

Some people don't have the time for a regular cycle. They can't do water changes every day due to time constraints or in my case, money. Though some fish may be able to take the ammonia and nitrite spikes well enough I would rather not put any creature through the stress of the cycle. And yes, while the fishless cycle does have its problems so does a regular cycle and in my opinion, if done properly, the fishless cycle can be quicker. Why not buy a product that instantly cycles? The only one I'm aware of that actually works is Bio Spira, and it is currently back ordered just about anywhere.

Everyone has their own opinions about things and that's one of the things I really detest about this board. No one respects another's opinions. If the fish was in danger I could see how someone could get upset, but honestly, something as silly as this? Which cycle is better is strictly a matter of opinion. Fish Profiles really does have some great information but I can hardly stand to read the forums because in nearly every single thread someone gets upset about something very petty and an arguement ensues. Come on guys! Do you think beginners in the fish hobby are really going to enjoy the arguements? Probably not. And isn't that the whole reason of this forum? To enlighten beginners on better ways to share info, to help each other to take care of their fish, and to swap experiences? Why argue? It's petty and a major put off. I really doubt I'm going to stay here because it is such a pain when everyone is costantly arguing, and I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way.

"Get with the program"? I have never tried fish-less cycling, which is why I wasn't sure if what I said above was correct.

I agree with Gary, the bacteria-adding products available today are great for cycling tanks. I used one of these things myself, and never had (or have had since) a problem with ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."