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Maybe the bacterial changing of ammonia into nitrite is vacant. This may cause high ammonia and low nitrite/nitrates. Just a guess though.

Thats ok. Happy to help. Best of luck to you and your fishys. **Tiger

Thank you so much for your help Tiger Angel. I shall test the water again and e mail frank if still nothing has changed.

i do think eventually my fish will need a bigger tank at the moment they are ok, but i have my plans for an up grade!!

thanks again
GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

OK I found the e.mail. His name is FRANK and he is pretty good with water quality [a href="mailto:WB4CIW@AOL.COM"]WB4CIW@AOL.COM[/a]
He maybe able to answer your questions regarding kh/gh as I do not test for these. HTH**Tiger




Last edited by TigerAngel at 06-Feb-2005 07:29

Sorry we seem to be posting over each other.

OK I notice on your profile that you have the Clowns in a 40gal, with the keyholes. Depending on how big you clowns are now, that size tank will become too small. They grow up to about 8-9" in a Aquarium. But my 3 I have here do seem to grow slowly. You don't want to stunt Clownies as they seem to die. Not like some fish.

Also a tank that size/stock should have a weekly water change. I notice you do three weekly, on your profile. Weekly changes will help prevent fish from getting sick.

I'm trying to get an e.mail address of someone that might be able to help you with your kh/gh questions. Will let you know. **Tiger

Cichlid tank
no3 - no reaction so less than 10 (that is good)
no2 - nothing so zero (that is excellent)
dGH - <6' (can not help here)
dKH - 0' <--------- (can not help here)
pH - 6.4 (too low for cichlids)

Depending on what type of cichlids, most like a PH of 8. Keyholes are fine in 7.0 but 6.4 is too low.
Keyholes do tend to stress abit.

When using meds for Clown Loaches, only us 1/2 the dose it states on the bottle. What is your temperature now in that tank?
How big are your Clowns Loaches?, as that tank will become too small for them.
When you know for sure that your fish have white spot (ick)
water changes and temperature increase may no be enough. You will have to treat the whole tank. Water changing can stress Clowns out, which when stress will bring on ick.
If you know for sure its ick, 1/2 dose it and leave it for 3 days (or whatever the meds instruction states) then do your water changes.

livebearer tank
no3 - 25 = (nothing to worry about if you do
weekly water changes, watch it doesn't
get any higher)
no2 - 0 = excellent
dgh - >14* = can not help here
dkh - 15* = can not help here
pH - 8 = good, maybe a tiny bit high)

One more thing, ick comes when a fish is either stressed or cold (water too cold) a small overcrowd tank can led to stress fish. HTH **Tiger

Sorry tiger angel, I should have re posted

Cilchlid tank

no3 - no reaction so less than 10
no2 - nothing so zero
dGH - <6'
dKH - 0' <--------- that what i should be worried about?
pH - 6.4

this is the tank that i have been doing a lot of water changes(about 25% every second day)One of my keyhole cilchlids looked like she was getting white spot and since i have clown loaches i like to avoid medicines so i raised temp and did WC instead)

livebearer tank

no3 - 25
no2 - 0
dgh - >14*
dkh - 15*
pH - 8

this tank has about three teaspoon of salt per gallon. bothtanks are filled using the tap water treated with aqua plus dechlorinator.

thank you for taking the time to help

GFG

edited to answer all of Tiger angels questions,

aside from the Ciclid white spot things, the random deaths have not been recent, when i first kept fish here (we moved two years ago) virtually every fish I put in the tank(despite it being cycled and constantly checked by me and the guy who ran the fish shop)died in around three months,i thought at the time it was my lfs, but even when i shopped else where the same thing happened.

for about six months the only things that lived were zebra danios.

now i have clown loaches some thrive some don't and three keyhole cichlids who were doing great growing and everything but they have been there for four months now so????

I hope that was what you wanted to know.
thanks again
x





Last edited by goldfishgeek at 06-Feb-2005 06:55

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

I didn't think you would have any ammonia. Not with your Nitrite at zero. But its good you have the kit now as it is importable one to have.
Let me get this straight.
Your Cichlid take is:
Ammonia 0 = very good
Nitrite 02 0 = very good
Nitrate 03 25 = no too bad. (means tank has cycled.)
PH 8 = good for Cichlids
dgh - >14* = (not sure of these readings)
dkh - 15* = (not sure of these readings)
(I do not test for the above two, only the first 4 items)

Livebearer tank
Ammonia 0 = very good
Nitrite 02 0 = very good
Nitrate 03 -10 = very good
PH 6.4 = low (try getting it up to 7.0 - 7.4)
dGH(?) - <6' = (Sorry can not help here)
dKH - 0' = (Sorry can not help here)

When you say that your fish are randomly dieing, out of which tank are they from, and what type of fish are they. ?
Also what systoms do they have. It may not be your water.
What temperature are you running your tanks at.? Are you conditioning the water when doing water changers.?

This one is beyond me, sorry I couldn't help

I have a separate ammonia test and used it today, the water in the test tube for both tanks stayed clear which according to the box means no ammonia

I did retest the tanks and the results have stayed the same.

i am confused( which is fairly standard tiny brain) should i add bicarb to the no hardness tank?

i have been changing the water a lot in there, cos one of the cichlids looked v ropey - she looks better now and is back to swimming with the others.

I really appreciate all of your help..even though i don't exactly understand all this science!

but seriously thank you

GFG


_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

this could take some time, i have brought new test strips made by vitakraft(who actually also make the rat food i get)
it doesn't do ammonia so for now i will carry on with the old(i think) unreliable test.
the thirty five gallon tank

no3 - no reaction so less than 10
no2 - nothing so zero
dGH(?) - <6'
dKH - 0'
pH - 6.4

is my pH too low

and what is dGh i know its total hardness but?
and dkh cabonate hardness? what difference does it make i havenever tested for these things before and are these the "right results" or is it stuff i can't change

and do these results explain why my fish are dying randomly?

thank youx

edit to add other tanks testresults

no3 25
no2 - 0
dgh - >14*
dkh - 15*
pH - 8

are these ok? well i know the no3 isn't so am off to do a water change.

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 04-Feb-2005 14:51

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

If you were having an ammonia problem you will have higher levels of Nitrite. Hers are zero nitrite. Her nitrate is 25, which isn't too bad ever. So I don't see her having any ammonia problems. But it is adviseable to have a ammonia kit and do regular tests.

I din't read all the replies to your question so this may have already been addressed, however I see you tested all but ammonia, if your nitrites and nirates are indeed that low you may have an ammonia problem. Just a thought

What kind of test kits are you using?

Last edited by militarysnake at 05-Feb-2005 11:27

Most tap water here in the UK are hard and well buffered. The only exception that I know of is in Scotland where the water are fairly soft. Put some tap water in a container overnight and test to see what results you're getting for pH, KH and GH. If you don't have algae problem, don't worry about your nitrates (NO3), it's not lethal for your fish.

Carbonate hardness is also sometimes called temporary hardness, which means that unlike general hardness, its levels may decrease. Boiling water, for instance, decreases carbonate hardness, peat does too, and some decorations in your tank. The easiest way to increas your KH is to add baking soda, the one you can get from every supermarket (I've never seen scented baking soda here in the UK, by the way). Dissolve 1 teaspoon of baking soda for every 10 gallons in a container with tank water and then add it to the tank and wait 2 hours before you test again. If the pH hasn't changed a lot (if at all), repeat procedure. If it has, wait 24 hours and then repeat. Your aim should be at least 4 DKH.

The results of your second tank are more like the results of an untreated tank in the UK would be. Hard, well buffered water. I wouldn't worry about the DGH of your first tank. It will either rise in time if you have hard tap water, and if not, it's a perfect tank for south american fish (dwarf cichlids, cories, etc), after you've raised the KH a bit, of course.

Also, if I were you, I would invest in a real test kit rather than those strips. They might give a general picture, but not an accurate one and they don't test for ammonia. I know they cost about £9 per pack, while a master kit with tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrates and pH (low and high range) would cost around £15 and would be more accurate too. You would have to invest in GH/KH test kit too, but you could buy Nutrafin's test kit which has both and costs around £8.

Another thing you have to think of is that you cannot transfer your fish from one tank to the other because of your pH. It is also something to think about when buying new fish, most shops would have untreated water at around 7.4 pH and you should take a long time to acclimate them.

I would test both tanks again and your tap water. I'm not sure what would lower kh that much. Maybe it's something in the other tank that is raising it instead. It might help if you told us what decorations and substrate are in both tanks and the fish stock. For a quick fix to bring the ph up and stabilize it you can add unscented plain baking soda. I'm not sure the amount but I think it's around 1 teaspoon per 10g. Add slowly and test ph/kh alot so you don't shock your fish. 2-3 kh would be a minimum to keep the ph stable. Also if your tap tests higher you could do a water change but since you have nitrates so low on that tank compared to the other it makes me wonder if frequent water changes aren't the cause of that tanks problems. Meaning extremely soft unbuffered tapwater.

How many tanks do you have and how big are they
How long have you had the tanks? and have they cycled?
What fish is in each tank?
How many fish is in each tank?

For eg: I have a 4 footer
(see profile for fish)
PH: 7.0 (drops sometimes to 6.6)
Ammonia: 0
02: .1
03: 10
( I do not test for anything else. I do weekly water changes as I over stock and over feed my fish.)

My 3 footer
(see profile for fish)
PH: 7.2 - 7.0 (hardly ever drops)
02: 0 - .1
03: 20 (normally around 10) but I left some pumkin in tank for too long.
Weekly water changes as again overstocked and overfeed.

My other two tanks 2 footer and 20"
PH: 7.4
Ammonia: 0
02: 0 - .1
03: 10
Weekly water change as I over feed them.

Your PH droping in 24hrs is not good. Fish can died of PH shock. http://tropicalresources.net/phpBB2/disease_profiles.php

An ammonia kit is a must.
What I trying to say with my eg, are that not two tanks are the same. Depending on size/stock/feeding/etc.

Regarding to PH. It also depends on what type of fish you have.
EG: Some do well in a PH of below 7.0. Others do not.
Like alot of Cichlids.
I try and keep my tank around Neutral 7.0, even though some fish EG: Striped Bard likes (6-7) and Mollys (7-8).
When I buy my fish, I always ask what the PH is of the LFS water. If the fish came out of a PH of say 8, then I do not buy it. As like I said I keep my PH at 7 and this would be a dramatic change for that fish.
I brought a couple of Cuckoo Catfish a few months ago. They are supposed to be in PH of 8. The LFS had them in PH of 7-. I mentioned this to them and they rang up the breeder who states she had these breed in PH on 7. The LFS has another breeder who breds then at 8ph. The lfs now buys them from her and keeps them in a tank 8PH. My guys are still with me, though people tell me that they probably wont live there full life out. I hardly ever see them though and again was told that in correct PH they will be more active. But I think its too late to put them in the correct PH now. Not after they been born and raised in ph of 7. I just brought then, thinking if they are going to have a short life, then they might as will do it in my tank. With loving care.
Sorry for all the ranting on. Just letting you know how ph can effect the fish, and how important it can be.

I am fairly sure i read the test right....but it was the first time i used that kit so i could have been wrong.

it was different colours to the other tanks results. why is that? i mean i use the same water source, the only difference between the two is that the 25G has salt added(liverbearer tank) - is that why?
it would explain what happened last year though, i had a major die off of fish and my pH kept coming out at ridiculous levels going from a 9 to 7.6 over 24 hours and sometimes lower, hmmm maybe the problem has continued? or got worse?

i don't test for ph or at least i haven't until today. the tests got too expensive cos i was buying new ones thinking there was something wrong with my tests and not the water if you see what i mean. i know will yelled at for this but i didn't realise pH really mattered till i read up on cichilds.

how do i change the carbonate hardness? can change it?

thanks for your help
GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

Are you certain that is zero dkh(carbonate hardness)? If it is then that's probably your problem. Your kh is what keeps your ph from dropping. With no kh your ph would change very easily and especially drop way too low for fish.