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I've read the reviews on www.cichlid-forum.com for NIC and it seems to me that a lot of people think it doesn't work. Some people swear that it works. Go ahead and try it though.



http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/view_product_review.php?id=332

Dennis...

The way I understand it, your Karma points rise whenever you start a thread or are one of the first to respond to threads.

I choose not to allow karma points. I just think they are kinda silly.

Yeah, you can't just rely on the NIC. It is the bacteria, but the ammonia feeds it. So if you use NIC, you need ammonia ASAP.

Well, my theory is based totally on my understanding of the cycle from what I've read. Certainly not from experience.

From what I understand, the ammonia to Nitrite bacteria grows faster than the nitrite to nirtate bacteria, and also is tuffer when it comes to temp and ph changes. It also obviously gets to eat and grow first. These things give it a serious advantage in populating, and that is why ammonia can get to zero, and nirtites are still going up for a long time. I assume this is the reason why we are supposed to cut the ammoina dose in half after we see nitrites, to try to let the second bacteria catch up using all the nitrites that it already has. I also added more NIC, and more healthy filter media to the tank at this point. I figured the first batch brought in ate ammonia, but the second type of bacteria starved out, so this second batch can go straight to helping the second batch of ammonia thrive.

I figure that nitrites aren't actually stuck, they are simply moving around off the readable scale. So people are missing the "spike". If we could read further up the scale, I think people would have an easier time understanding what is happening.

So thats my theory. But as I said, all I'm doing is taking my very basic understanding, and trying to see it through to a logical conclusion. There could be all kinds of chemical reactions going on that effect things I know nothing about.

thanks for the support!

-Dennis

ps. One more thing Tammy, you are a moderator, could you please explain what makes my "Karma" go up?



[span class="edited"][Edited by Beefshank 2004-08-28 05:11][/span]

It's interesting that your theory for the stalled nitrites is too much ammonia. I've always thought it to be not enough. I do know that when I have suggested increasing the level of ammonia to people that are experiencing the problem that the last hurdle climbing from nitrite to nitrate happens rather quickly. I've noticed that this issue has only come up when the fishkeeper was relying on the "new improved" cycle to help do the job of cycling the tank more than what is most important, the introducing of ammonia either with fish or without fish to the tank water.

You are right though, it really doesn't matter at this point. Your tank is cycled and awaiting it's new occupants. Congrats again and happy "fishing".

Ok, it's the next day, and another batch of ammonia has been turned into NitrAte. So everything looks good. I just changed probably 80% of the water to lower the nitrAtes, and tomorrow comes fish. I assume the bacteria can make it 24 hours? Everything I read about fishless cycling said to stop adding ammonia 24 hours before you add fish. I guess I could add a little ammonia to help it get through the "lean" times.

Well, I have no proof what made the biggest difference in cycle time, the NIC, or the bacteria from other tanks. The important thing is, it worked! I would have loved to try bio-spira, but there is none right now.

I figured, the high nitrItes level people get stuck at are a result of to much ammonia, not to much NIC. But I really only know what I have read about. I guess I was just "hedging my bets" (is that how you say it? ).

-Dennis

Dennis... Congrats on arriving!! Now...

I wouldn't wait too long to add those fish now that you have the tank cycled. The bacterial colony is established but not so much that it doesn't need regular feeding of ammonia.

Using the Cycle with the ammonia was unnecessary because you were controling the cycling process by the amount and frequency of ammonia you were using.

One of the main reasons that I am not a big believer in Cycle is I would bet that 8 out of 10 times I have seen people use the product to cycle their tanks and it seems they get to the nitrite portion of the cycle and the process seems to stall. Continually I have noticed people come back with concerns as to why it is taking the cycling process so long that they just can't seem to get over the nitrite hump. Now, I have heard nothing but great things about Bio-Spira. I sorry, I personally think the "New Improved" Cycle isn't much better than the old product, especially if people are using it thinking that it is going to dramatically speed up the cycling of their tanks.

Anything someone can do with the "New Improved" Cycle, I can do without.

It's cycled!!!

At exactly one week and 8 hours after starting, ammonia and nitrItes are both at zero! It kinda makes me wish I had measured 9 hours ago. Maybe I actually did it in less than a week!

So I've added what I hope will be the last dose of ammonia, to see if the cycle holds. If levels are still zero tomorrow, I'll change the water, let it pump around for a day, and get some fish on Friday!

-Dennis

Thanks Tammy! I feel pretty good about it.

In 8 hours, it will have been 1 week since I added the first ammonia dose. After the first day, I started to see Nitrites. After five days (or course adding more ammonia) my ammonia readings were always zero eight hours after adding it. At that point, I added more established media with NitrIte lovin' bacteria on it.

My nitrites have been off the scale for about 2 days (the scale goes ALL THE WAY up to FIVE! ) But today, the NitrAtes shot up from 8 to about 30! So I figure this means the nitrites are coming down, even though I can't measure them yet.

So that's where I am so far. I think things are looking good.

Tammy, the bottle of cycle didn't cost that much, so don't worry about the money. But I'm wondering why you think it is wasting TIME. Wouldn't adding the NIC only help things move faster?

thanks,
-Dennis

Congrats on the cycling process Beefshank...

I am one of those that strongly believes in the fishless cycling method. There really is very little if any margin for error and like you mentioned, there is no chance of stressing any fish. Hard to beat that.

In my opinion you are wasting your money (and time) by using the New Improved Cycle, especially while dosing with ammonia.


[span class="edited"][Edited by Tammy 2004-08-24 10:23][/span]

But i am using NIC! What I'm not using is fish.
I know thats not what you mean. And you may very well be right, and I may have problems and give up, but so what? It's only time, and....water.

trystianity,

Thanks for explaining your opinion so well. And as I said, I am using NIC. I just don't really like the idea of picking out special fish because they are tuff enough to survive. I'd just rather not put them through it at all.

Plus, taking readings, and messing with chemistry is more fun than just waiting.

-Dennis

[span class="edited"][Edited by beefshank 2004-08-20 02:54][/span]

I use NIC and prefer it to fishless cycling. You still have to be patient, only add a few hardy fish when you start and watch the tank to make sure everything stays at manageable levels. Dosing NIC does NOT elimintate the ammonia and Nitrite spikes but IME they are a lot lower and shorter with it than without. I swear by NIC and will never fishless cycle again.

The biggest problem i see with cycling is IMPATIENCE. . . you just need to sit back, seed the bacteria, make sure you have a source of good ammonia and let it take care of itself. It's really not that hard, no matter how you do it.

Whoops. I just realized that was for the original cycle, not the NIC.

I finally got my new 60gal, and am starting my fishless cycle (by starting, I mean there is water in the tank, and I'm telling you guys what the readings are )

The straight tap water is:

ammonia: .6ppm
NitrItes: 0
NitrAtes: 4.0
PH: 7.9

I was quite surprised to find nitrAtes at all, and that out of the tap my ammonia is above the .5ppm recommended for a fishless cycle starting load! I tested it twice, with the same result. Then I tested my established 5 gal, and found what I expected, amonia & NitrIte=0, NitrAte=20. So I guess I'm doing the test right.

Oh, I'm not thriller about 7.9 ph either, but the other tank is 7.6, so I guess it will come down.

So now I can start my fishless cycle without adding ammonia...I guess...

I have bacteria from my other tanks ready to add in, but without adding the first dose of ammonia to figure out how much gets me to .5ppm, it's gonna be sort of a guessing game.

Any comments are welcome, espcially if anybody has an idea on the dose of clear ammonia, from the grocery store, to add to a 60gal tank.

thanks,

-Dennis

You'll discover, as have so many others, that fishless cycling is time consuming and e to error...

And NIC does work.

--garyroland.

Well, after 36 hours, my ammonia has come down from 5 to 4, and I now have nitrites at .25! So it seems to be working.

Garyrowland, I HAVE got the message, but I want to try it this way. Plus, the ammonia is already in, so I couldn't add the fish now even if I wanted to. Plus this gives me time to screw around with aquascaping!

I appreciate all the advice and suggestions. Any others would be welcome.

thanks,
-Dennis

Well, if everyone believed that NIC worked, then it would indeed be that easy. If someone doesn't know for sure it works, however, then adding ammonia daily and checking for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate is an easy way to see if the tank is actually cycled.

You still haven't got the message...

When dosing the "New Improved Cycle", fish (a few) can be added immediately.

This product will jump start the cycle, the fish will provide the ammonia and you're on your way.

How could you ask for anything easier??

--garyroland.

thanks,

my ammonia is "pure" ammonia, I went to 3 stores looking for it. There are no additives.

I am using Cycle, as well as established filter media. But the fishless cycle should be faster, as well as FAR less stressful (as there aren't any) on fish. Plus, it's kinda fun, like a chemistry experiment! lol.

-Dennis

Most, if not all, household ammonia contains soaps and various additives...

An excellent way to foul tank water and kill your tropicals.

--garyroland.

[span class="edited"][Edited by garyroland 2004-08-19 10:17][/span]

I would dose 15ml (or 1-tablespoon) doses of household ammonia, measuring after each has had time to dissipate in the tank.

EDIT: As Garyroland points out, many household ammonias are contaminated with perfumes and such, so don't use them. You want pure ammonia. When I said "household" I was thinking in terms of concentration, because most ammonias aimed at cleaning - pure or not - are only 5-15% ammonia.


[span class="edited"][Edited by Silverlight 2004-08-19 10:52][/span]