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I've been keeping for for about 3 years now and what started off as just wanting a little pet betta has turned into an obsession. When I wanted to start getting fish in an actually aquarium (as opposed to a 1-2 gallon set up for a betta) I decided to get goldfish. I thought they were pretty and were supposed to be hardy. Every single goldfish that I got died within 2 weeks. About this time alot of my bettas started randomly dying off too. What it finally came down to was this: My pH is freakishly unstable. Out of the tap my pH is 7.2-7.4 and my kH was more than high enough to hold it still, but as soon as a fish or a filter was added my pH would skyrocket and wouldn't stop. It would go off the charts (and my chart goes up to 8.6 I believe) and even then it would continue to rise. I am on well water. It was said that the pH change was caused by the carbon dioxide off gassing, but if that is it then why does it continue to rise even after 24 hours? I have tried everything to keep my pH stable but no matter what I do it just goes far to high. Right now all of my fish are on bottled water (not distilled) with crushed coral in it to keep everything steady and my pH has held at 8.2. Only one problem. Bottled water gets expensive after a while! I would love to be able to use my tap water and not have to constantly buy bottled water but I don't see how that's possible. If anyone has any idea as to what is going on and any thoughts about whether or not I'll ever be able to use my tap water for fish please let me know. I'd love to heave everyone's thoughts on this.

Without a household water softener outside you're fighting a losing battle with high mineral content well water...

Some (most) well water has absolutely no buffering capability and will seek its own natural pH value.

--garyroland.

Goldfish are hardy and can handle a wide range of PH. Goldfish need large ponds for the common feeder type goldfish and a minimum of a 75 gallon tank for the fancy fish. Depending on how the stock was and if you cycled it it could have been anything that killed the fish.

Once you've figured out what the ph, kh, gh is once the waters been in the tank for say a week or so, you should pick fish that most closely match that ph. Many cichlids prefer the higher ph range.

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Yes, I know the needs of goldfish. I'm a member of a goldfish forum (also on aqua rank) so I know that while, yes, they can tolerate a wide pH range they can't take how high my pH is going. I was not overstocked and on one occasion I even used bio-spira. The fish that was in the tank then started off very healthy and was dead about a week and a half later. Gary, we do have a water softener.

If you have a high KH level, 200ppm or more, you will have a high pH...

Carbonate hardness (KH) does indeed help stabilize pH in the aquarium but you never gave us a figure on the amount of KH.

Deionized water added to the tank will help control the pH drift and lower the carbonate hardness. Deionized water contains no KH or GH.

For some reason your carbonate and bicarbonate ions are reacting with something in the tank water causing the increased pH value.

Remove any material that would increase pH in your tank.

--garyroland.

One thing which might be possible is that your water has high levels of co2 and once you it's added to the tank the co2 escapes the water and the pH rises. It makes sense to me as you say that your pH is 7.2 - 7.4 to begin with and your KH is "more than high enough to hold it still", and although you don't give the exact reading, if your KH is really that high it means that you do have high concentration of co2. Having high KH doesn't meant that the co2 will not escape the water until it reaches equilibrium, it only means that it takes it longer than it would with a lower KH.

If you post exactly how high your KH is we will be able to determine your co2 levels and see if it makes sense, or you can calculate it yourself here.

Keep us posted though, I for one am curious to know the results.

Last edited by untitled at 17-Dec-2004 16:34

Sorry about that. My kH is 250.6ppm! I never would have thought that my kH being so high could be a problem, but I guess it only makes sense.

Most of those times when I tried to set up an aquarium with my tap water the tank was completely bare. With nothing but a filter, water, and fish. I attempted it a few times with salt/and or conditioner as well.

Like I said, all of my fish are on bottled water now but if I could ever get my tap water to get to where I can use it that would be great as I would REALLY love to get an oscar in the future, but don't have enough cash to continue to buy water for my goldies and another large tank.

With KH of 250ppm (14 dGH) and 7.2 pH, your water holds 26ppm of co2 when they come out of the tap. I think you would find out that most people in the Planted Aquaria forum would be jealous of you. Some of us spend a lot of money getting that much co2 into our tanks.

You can test this to make sure this is what causes the pH to rise. Fill a bucket with tap water and run an airstone in it overnight. In the morning your pH should rise.

I see three possible option to solve your problem. The first is injecting co2 to keep your co2 levels at 26ppm and your pH down at 7.2. The second is to lower your KH. One to lower your KH is by using peat and I seem to remember reading that boiling the water lowers your KH, but I don't think you will achieve the same results everytime, so it might not be a great idea. The third option is to get a reverse osmosis filter. I have seen simple and relatively cheap r/o systems sold on ebay here in the uk (like this one. You can then mix the r/o water with tap water to reach your desired parameters. Make some experiments first to see what is the best ratio between r/o and only then use it in the tank.

Whichever way you decide to go, you need to make sure you get the co2 out of your water before you put it in the tank (bucket, airstone, overnight) or the fish will be subjected to pH swings whenever you top up the tank which will be stressful for them.

If I were you I'd chose the co2 injection as then you can have a lush planted tank, but r/o might be cheaper.

Well water, most of it, does not contain high levels of CO2, at least not enough after going through the water softener, to increase pH levels of 8.0 and up after sitting in the aquarium...

Peat will not control high creeping values of pH either, only slightly buffer it.

The poster's problem is high KH levels that must be diluted, as I said before, with deionized water.

Nothing scientific or complicated involved.

--garyroland.

I have tested my water like you suggested in the past. I have tested a one gallon bucket of water, a three gallon bucket of water, and a ten gallon aquarium and overnight my pH jumps. So, if that's my problem then what do I do. How do I go about diluting my water with de-ionized. Sorry to be a bother, but I'm getting a little confused with the conflicting thoughts.

There's really nothing to be confused about except when the "scientific-minded" produce too many ways to reduce high pH...

Water changes done with 50% tap water and 50% deionized water mixed together will dilute and reduce your pH.

Since deionized contains no GH or KH it's a perfect water to use. Reverse osmosis (RO) water does contain GH and KH rendering it less useful as a high pH diluter.

Do your pH tests after mixing your water and doing a few water changes over a period of time to get a feel of how much the pH has come down.

Remember, a pH of 9.0 is just about the max allowable for most all trops and Golds. Anything below that is fine.

--garyroland.

Thank you guys so much, and now I have one last question. Deionized is the same as distilled, correct? Meaning I would still need to purchase water, just in about half the amount?

Deionized water is not the same as distilled...

Carbonate and bicarbonate minerals are measured by ion concentrations dissolved in water.

A process to remove ions from water is done by ion exchange process, similar to how a water softener works.

In a water softener the ion concentrations are exchanged with salt; and slurry, or waste, a watery mixture, is expended out of the softener.

Distilled water is merely drops of water vapor (steam) trapped and collected from boiling water. This water may still contain GH and KH but in very small quantities.

If deionized water cannot be found, distilled would be your second choice to dilute your high pH water.

--garyroland.







Last edited by garyroland at 18-Dec-2004 18:39