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Hi there

Last Friday I bought 2 bolivian rams & they're in my quarantine tank, waiting to be transferred to the community tank in another week if all goes well. LFS was helpful and honest, in that he tried hard to get me a male & a female, but told me he wasn't really sure. This is the behaviour I've noticed in my new rams.

1st few days, both were very, very shy & hung out together in the bottom of the tank, towards the back. Gradually, one has become dominant and ventures out & about, participating in feeding (won't come to the top - but goes for anything that drops down). The 2nd hides in the back corner near filter & heater, sometimes venturing to front cnr. Whenever dominant one spots the other ram, he/she charges - making threatening mouth movements, as if to bite. I don't think he/she ever bites, but the threat is there & the other poor one seems stuck in the corner & doesn't get any food. I'm not worried it'll be killed directly, but worry it won't get any food & feel sorry that it's stuck in one corner. In the quarantine tank is one guppy & one harlequin rasbora (I know the harly should be in a school - more friends will come soon). The dominant ram couldn't care less about these other 2 fish & hasn't chased them once. In fact in one funny mock attack, the dominant ram was in the middle of a charge to scare the other, his path was crossed at the crucial moment by a guppy. He stopped, politely waited for the guppy to pass, and then continued his charge at the other ram.

Anyway do you think this behaviour means it's more likely I have two males, instead of one of each sex? Should I worry about the non dominant ram being too stressed by all this chasing?

Cheers
TW

They may both be the same sex, but it's still possible that you have a male and a female. It's a little tricky to sex rams, but I find that the most accurate means of telling gender apart lie in the genital vents of the fish. The genital tubes of each sex (located between the anus and the anal fin) will stick out a little from the body and are noticeable when the fish are not moving. Males have a narrow, pointed vent, and females have a tube which is a little thicker and appears to have a cratered tip.

No need to be too worried about the lesser ram, unless there is not sufficient tank space of a breakup of lines of sight to allow it some privacy. If it's a small, relatively bare tank, then it will have a lot more trouble with the bully fish.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Thanks sirbooks

I know you say not to worry, but still concerned for the shyer fish. I've had them both a week now and I haven't seen this poor one eat at all. I do have rocks, etc in the tank, but it's favourite hiding place is behind the heater and/or filter. To eat, the fish has to come to the front of the tank (or at least towards the front, as his hiding spot is below the filter box, where I can't sprinkle the food) and if it does that, it's chased straight back. I'm sure it's unhappy. The dominant one proudly displays the dorsal fin, but the other one keeps the dorsal fin tucked down. I think he may starve and live a sad life if these fish stay together. Do you still think it's ok to keep both of these fish, considering I haven't seen shy one eat yet. I always stay and watch the feeding, giving little bits at a time, so I know he hasn't eaten. For the sake of the shyer fish, should I take one back, and, if so, which one? So far, the dominant fish ignores the guppy, but will it's bully personality eventually show through to harass other fish as well. Next Friday, after 2 weeks quarantine, my plan is to move them both into the community tank. It's not yet fully stocked, but eventually the community tank will have platys, guppys, pandas, harlequins & maybe ottos.

What does anyone think. Originally I was only going to get one Ram, but so it wouldn't be lonely I got two - so there would be a playmate for company. But that isn't the way it's working out at all.

I'd appreciate to hear anyone's thoughts on this. Thanks so much.

Cheers
TW

Hi Robyn,

IME what you're observing is a common behavior between 2 Bolivian Rams, doesn't matter whether they're both the same sex or not. Even my pair who've bred 3 times exhibit this in the "off" season. The dominant male always chases the smaller female away during feeding time. It's just mock aggression and doesn't seem to affect the female's health - I guess she's always found something to eat when the male's not eating. When they're not in mating season, I always see the male and female in 2 different ends of the tank, never together. Fortunately my tank is heavily planted, so each can have his/her own place. How big is your quarantine tank? It might not be big enough for each to have his/her own territory. This won't be problem once you move them to your main tank.

My advice would be to drop some sinking food (shrimp pellet, tablet, etc.) near the less dominant Ram when you're feeding the dominant Ram so the latter will be too busy eating to bother the other one, and the former doesn't need to go to the latter's territory. Another solution would be to get another Ram - 3 would help diffuse the agression of the dominant male.

BTW, this mock agression only occurs towards another Ram (and never to a point of causing any injury), not to other fishes, so you don't have to worry about the Ram going berserk and attacking your other fish.

Continue to monitor the other Ram's health. If your quarantine tank is not big enough, you may want to consider moving the him/her to your main tank first, since it's cycled anyway. Good luck!

-P

i had this same problem with my 2 bolivians, i picked out a male and female, and added them to a quarintine tank where i was also quarentining 4 blue rams, the tank was (well, still is) heavely planted, and is a 20 gallon, the female blues were still very small, first i lost one male blue ram, then i lost the 2 females (very sad) but after a bit, i moved the 3 remaining rams (1m1f bolivian, 1m blue)to my 20 long after i had it planted how i wanted it... i noticed that the male blue and female bolivian had almost paired up, they hang out, and share the same teritory, but the male bolivian, was pushed into the shadows, i tried to feed him, but he wouldnt eat the food i left out for him, but i did notice he was from extremely thin, to almost normal, but, somehting happened and he got very sik, and before i could do anyhting about it, he died, no other fish appear sick, but i do think its because he was pushed aside, i would keep an eye out, and watch real close, before it gets as bad as i let it

Hi Paulus

Thanks for the advice. I've moved the shyer ram into the planted tank now. The quantine tank (20G tall) does have some largish ground level rocks to hide behind, but I guess it wasn't enough. Before I had all those rasbora deaths , the rock build up was much higher. I had built up layers of rocky caves, ready for when it becomes my cichlid tank, after the big tank is stocked. It would have been better to help the situation, but I got sick of having to pull the rocks out to find the poor little rasboras each time - so only the lower level of rocks remain. Although the shy ram didn't particpate in feeding tonight in the new tank, he/she is swimming around much more happily (dorsal fin is being raised now) and is scavenging around the tank bottom looking for scraps. I'll get some of the sinking pellets tomorrow, but hope it learns to come to the surface to eat. It missed out on blood worms tonight. The greedy platys & guppys don't let any of those sink to the bottm. . Reluctant to move the other ram next week now, as I like a peaceful tank - don't really like even the mock aggression, because even though fish not injured, must still make life unpleasant for the shy fish. Oh well, I'll see what happens next Friday when I transfer.

Another solution would be to get another Ram - 3 would help diffuse the agression of the dominant male.

Keeping in mind my stocking plan - would another ram push me over the limit (4 platys, 6 guppies, 2 bolivian rams, 10 cory pandas, 8-10 harlequin rasboras & maybe 3 ottos if I can find them) Would the extra ram just be pushing it too much? If I do get another, do you recommend M or F? In any case, I wouldn't decide to do that unless the aggression is still a problem after the move, but would it be too may fish anyway

Fishyhelper, so sorry about your rams that died. Yes, it's sad when that happens, as they're our babies & responsibility. I'll certainly watch what happens when the dominant one moves out of the quarantine tank & back in the same tank as the shy one. If it doesn't work out, I'll have to see if I can find a nice home for one of them, as I wouldn't want the same to happen to me. Thanks for the advice.

Cheers
TW

Hi Robyn,

Glad to hear the Ram is happier in the big tank.
I think you should wait and see what happens after you move the dominant Ram into the big tank. If the shyer Ram does fine (which I think it will), forget about the 3rd Ram.

Definitely get some sinking pellets or bottom-feeder wafers for Rams. They don't normally come to the surface to feed especially if there are greedy livebearers around.

-P

Yeah, I don't think you'll need to add another Bolivian ram unless the bully fish really starts getting ornery. They are pretty messy fish for their size, shredding food through their gills and generally just pooping a lot. I should think that two rams would be okay, especially if you can make sure that both get enough food. I haven't known Bolivians to kill each other through outright aggression, so if you can figure out the food factor then you'll be golden. Enjoy the rams, they're pretty spiffy fish.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Thanks sirbooks & upikabu

I don't want to add another ram, unless it's really necessary to help out with the bully. In fact, if I could re-do my purchase, I'd only have one ram.

I haven't known Bolivians to kill each other through outright aggression, so if you can figure out the food factor then you'll be golden

Agreed - I think the mock aggression could make for an unhappy fish, though, not fatal. As you say, it's now just the food issue.
The shy ram is happier, swims all over the tank & seems to search for food, but still difficult to feed. Tried sinking pellets, but this ram hasn't associated me with food yet. Doesn't come up to particpate in general feeding with the others in the tank & doesn't notice when I'm dropping food for him at the opposite end of the tank. In fact, when I'm feeding the others, he's just as likely to be at the back of the tank, or if he is in the front, he turns away just before the sinking pellet reaches his line of view. I guess he'll learn eventually, I can see him searching for food. My livebearers associate one particular spot where I feed them, so the ram's spot is the opposite end. But they're greedy & nosey it won't take them long cotton on to the fact there is food to be had there too. They were already starting to figure it out last night.

Cheers
TW