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I have a little experiment going at the moment .

I have a very heavily planted tank about 20 gallons with the following ALL living happily !!

Every fish is very young and under an inch in length .

2 Apistogramma panderini (pair)
2 Apistogramma pulchra (pair)
2 Apistogramma cacatuoides (pair)
2 Borelli Cichlids (Pair)
2 Keyhole Cichlids (pair)
4 Checkerboard Cichlids (tiny)


The only two fish who had a problem with each other was the female panderini and the male pulchra but they took it in turns to "chase" each other .. ... there was no outright winner so they both get on with each other ( well tolerate each other ).

=Amazingly the only fish who has claimed a little patch of tank is one of the TINY checkerboard cichlids

I realise that this tank is only peaceful because they are ALL such yopung fish but it is fantastically intersting to watch them all going about their business.

As they grow I will simply move them to other tanks.

If any of those decide to spawn I would guess you are going to have problems.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I would worry about the apistos cross breeding.

Yes, the Apistos will definitely cross breed. And you will likely lose 2 of the three males you currently have. The most domonant male of the three species you have will be the breeder of all the three females of the Apisto species. And will likely kill off the other two males (IMO and IME he will definitely kill off the other males in that size of tank). From your description of the activity, I would say it appears that your male pulchra is the dominant male already and is testing out the female panderini for breeding. And vise versa, the female panderini is testing the male pulchra for dominance and strength for breeding purposes. With many SA cichlids, the females test the males for the strongest and most powerfulest one to spawn with.

As well, when the females become larger, just be sure you can tell which are which species. As the females will take on very similar appearances when they become mature. And separating at that time, could be a problem and you could end up putting the wrong females with the wrong males when you split them up.

With pairs of any of those cichlids you have listed, you should not have more than one pair in a 20 gal tank. Other wise you are just asking for trouble.

And you will most definitely be overstocked in that tank, once they reach full size. But as stated prior, I don't see that happening if they are all left in the same tank.

And my question is, what is the "little experiment going at the moment"?

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There is always a bigger fish...

To be honest I did a little research about these little beauties and decided to try them togther in a heavily planted tank . Bear in mind that they are ALL unsed an inch long - the checkerboard and pulchra's are only half an inch long.

Nothing sinister going on - I just had a feeling that they would get on as they are so young -and thankfully for the last month or so - they have.


I have 3 other mature tanks ready and waiting if any problems develope.

As stated prior problems will arise and i suggest that you SEPARTATE them before anything sinister does happen... why wait?



\\\\\\\"an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure\\\\\\\"

I see no reason to make any changes because to be honest the tank is just so interesting at the moment .
Rest assured , at the FIRST sign of trouble I will take the appropriate action.

Also, I realise that it's early days and I am sure that the sday will come when I have to remove a few of them but until then I can honestly say that this is the most interesting group of fish I have ever had in 35 years fishkeeping ( on and off)

Someone with 35 years of fish keeping decides to place these fish in those conditions?
Do you realise the colours of the fish will be almost dull in compared to what they would look like if it was just one pair?
Man. I've been keeping fish for about 6 years now, looks like i might become the Bill Gates of fishkeeping

Gotta agree with mez on this one, theres gonna be a punch up or fifty, and a lot of intraspecies male to female persecution going on. The territorial boundaries of those tank inhabitants actually runs to a tanksize closer 60 gallon. Hybridisation is of minimal risk, its the persecution factor that will cause the most problems. You'll get the weaker species waning. Youll probably lose all but about 4-5 fish.

35 years in goldfish, or was it mollies, perhaps bettas? lol.

To be brutally honest thats not an experiment,a experiment would be something set up with a reasonable expectation of success, this is just critical overstock - its just dumb fishkeeping. A beginners mistake. Theres not even enough room for the females to get away from their own males if pairings arent successful. Lets hope youve got a few spare aquaria handy.

I suggest you re-assess immediately. Bad idea.

Hybridisation is of minimal risk

I must disagree with you here git. As it has been show many times that Apisto species quite readily and easily interbreed.

My biggest worry follows this line of thinking about the hybridisation. As the females of these species, when they start maturing, will have very similar appearances. And thus, it will be hard to 100% confirm which female is of which species. And if all left together, you will end up with one male that will be doing all the fathering of the fry, even if that one male does not kill the other males off. He will still dominate the entire territory of that sized tank.

Rest assured , at the FIRST sign of trouble I will take the appropriate action

I still fear that your troubles will be more than you realize. As by the time you actually see the FIRST sign of trouble, you could have dead fish, or damaged and injured fish. Which for the injured fish, means trouble of pain, infection, and possibly eventually death. Why would you want to wait till you see these things happening? This does not sound like good fish keeping hobbyist actions to me.



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There is always a bigger fish...

It is interesting how views on this matter vary .

I put the same thread in the forum below and the majority of comments were positive and certainly no cheap shots .

http://www.aquahobby.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=51158

Ok so without taking away the credit of that website which nobody will do, first reply:

Frankly, I do not understand the point of your experiment.

And another i picked out, siding with you. Now, lets be honest about this mate, this guy has:

I can say from experience this may work provided you have calm fish. I currently have a 150 gal tank with a full grown male green terror (9in), a full grown male jack dempsey (8in), 4 angels, 2 clown loaches and 2 large plecos.

Hmmm....right....anyone care to pick this apart, put it on toothpicks and serve it to random animals?
Anyway, people who agree with you obviously dont have the experience or basic knowledge to offer you decent information. Angels and a green terror. And a JD. oh, and two of those schooling loaches...You dont want the answer IMO, as you've probably already got it in your tank. I'd be suprised if some males dont start to look like females soon and try to mimic them. I'd love to see some photos of a 35 year experienced hobbyist with his 20 gallon origin-mixed setup that is going well and providing him gratitude.

Welcome to FP Zincubus

Although things are ok for the moment, and interesting even, trouble WILL arise. Most fish trouble
happens when not there to see it. We're sleeping, out somewhere, at work etc, a fish injury can take under a minute. Your vigilant eye may well miss it until it's happened. ESPECIALLY with cichlids. The fact that they're territorial and crowded just compounds the potential problems that can happen overnight.

So when to move them, after a fish has been injured or killed ? What about the stress that you don't see ?
This can easily be avoided.

Do the right thing by giving them the territory and space that they need, as soon as possible



The Amazon Nut...

I must disagree with you here git. As it has been show many times that Apisto species quite readily and easily interbreed.

Fair enough, never said hybridisation wasnt possible, but in 20 gals, with that mix of fish , what do you think is gonna happen first, a hybridisation, or something getting badly suboordinated, possibly killed by stress and chasing? Some of these guys are really sensitive species.

These are young fish, and the ceasefire a temporary thing. When proper territorial establishment happens whats gonna happen first? Is it going to be straight into breeding and hybridisation, or will it be fish loss?

Dont get me wrong, I agree that hybridisation is possible, and should be avoided, but thats not gonna be the first thing that happens. I reckon he'll be down a few fish before any of that.

Firstly let me ask where you are seeing people on here taking "cheap shots" at you? You must understand that you came here and asked questions, and then got some answers. The answers where not the ones you were looking for, so you posted things that more so tried to justify what you are doing. And you stated that you were not going to take the advice you were being given. That is like telling someone that they are wrong with the answers they have given you, and many people take that as disrespect. That can upset many people that are highly experienced in this field. So they may come back with some answers that are more harsh to you. They are trying to get their point across to you. I am sorry if this may sound harsh, but they are continueing to give you advice that you are continuing to disreguard and/or disrespect. Thus, it feels like taking a cheap shot back at those that are just trying to help you.

As for that other posting on another website, I am sure if you posted the same thing on 20 different web sites, you would probably get 10 or 20 different ideas and answers. That is the great thing about asking your questions to multiple peoples, and thus one of the great things about the ease of doing so on the net.

As for experience and such, well none of us can know for sure the exerience of others we are talking with on the net. Until we start learning who to trust and who mostly tells us answers that fit the best to our questions. Myself, I have bred over 400 different species of fish. And have kept as many as up to 125 aquariums going at the same time in my house. I belong to over a dozen local, national, and international fish clubs and organizations. I have written several papers on different aspects of fish keeping and breeding. And done many studies on them. My knowledge and experience is extense. But hey, you can't really know that unless you read my other posts, and then not really. As you don't really know me. So you still have to decide who's advice you want to take. Several of the others that have posted in this thread already, have a great knowledge base as well as a lot of experience too. I would take their recomendations over most all out there. So in the end, you are the one that has to decide which advise you are going to take.

As for that other post though, just as mez has already stated, the very first post was asking what the experiment part of it was? The same exact quetion I asked of you in my first post. If you are doing an experiment, you need to define what it is you are experimenting about. Like what made you decide why do the experiment in the first place, how you are doing it, how long your plans are to see what happens, and what is the expected final outcome verses what is the probable expected outcome. Your initial post simply stated you put said fish in said tank and they are fine. And then when they grow you will move them. No experiment is listed, not even a question (which is why you do experiments, to back up a theory or question). If it is a stocking experiment, like stated by one of the posters in your other thread, then let us know that. But if there are plans on moving them eventually, like also was stated, then what is the stocking experiment? As it sounds like you know, and the "supporters" know that you are eventually going to have to move them out. I am at a loss still as to the main part of your experiment is.

Also, in that other site's thread, the very first post states everything we have stated here already. He asks you why about everything we have asked you why about. Even the others that state they support you, all agree with everything that we have already stated about the aggression and cross breeding hybridization.

I put the same thread in the forum below and the majority of comments were positive

I must disagree. Though the majority may have stated they are in support, the majority is 3 of the 5 that posted. And everyone that is in support, states so because the fact that you stated you have tanks already and waiting for the fish to be moved to. If you had not stated that fact, they all and everyone would have been non supportive. After all, they state that the waiting tanks is the reason they are supportive.



Git, I agree that it is not the first problem that will likely happen, and that it is more likely a dominance and fish injury will be the first things to happen. My concern though, is that if it takes a bit before this does happen, when or if he separates them out, that he may get the females mixed up.

As well, like you said, he will be down a few fish eventually, and they will most likely be the 2 less dominant Apisto males to start with. Thus being left with 3 different species of females, and again possible troubles of differentiating them. As the more aggressive times will come with maturity and the want/need to spawn and breed. I feel much of the problems here will start coming around the same time frame.

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There is always a bigger fish...

( bows to Acidrains warehouse of tanks )

And to think i cant get the other half to agree to a 5th tank.

Where do I begin ?

I suppose that I chose the wrong word in EXPERIMENT .

I just want a happy but interesting community tank.

At the moment THAT is what I have - early days granted.

I have spare tanks ready , running and waiting.

All the cichlids are very young and small - under 1" .


With regard to the "cheap shots" - I was referring to ..... "35 years in goldfish, or was it mollies perhaps bettas? lol."

Sorry I missed that "cheap shot" and yes it was one. I appologize for that, as I have so many threads I have to view/check and watch for as a moderator, that sometimes my quick skimming can miss some things. And Git can be that way sometimes. With all the people on here, you will get that sometimes. Just try to ignore comments like that or just over look them. And to be honest, that was kinda mild to what I have to cut out most of the time. But Git is very knowledgable, so do pay attention to his posts.

As for the rest though, in the end it is your tank(s), so you have to make your final decision. But I have to say that I still have to stand by my suggestions and comments.

As for the word experiment, yes I agree that you probably chose the wrong word. Many of those on this site have some to extensive backgrounds in science. So that word has an impact with our/their knowledge. Yeppers, if you would have left the word "experimental" out of your topic line, and the first sentence out of your primary first post, I feel this thread would have went a little differently. But you would have probably still gotten mostly the same answers.

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There is always a bigger fish...

Is that that then? No updates on this experiment? Or did it all go horribly wrong?