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Dear Mike;

Sorry, I was away for a bit. As for experience, I've had ten years or so of raising angels, which makes for about 2-3 pairs a year, depending on what's available. Currently, I'm only working with two pairs of non pearlscale goldies (Naga's Gold Angels). My father has been going at it for several years before that. I'm not disputing heaven's statement, I'm just saying I've never experienced such aggression. I'd also like to add It's just to my knowledgethat angels cannot grasp concepts such as (which you labeled as instinct, but it actually isn't) "thinking" it's mate ate the eggs. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying I've never heard of it.



[span class="edited"][Edited by Klee 2004-08-01 22:16][/span]

That would be great Klee. I think this breeder is seriously interested in working with this strain of angelfish.

Alec, thanks for your tolerance of the tangent we've taken on you. By all means, please feel free to ask more specific stuff to your original thread.

[span class="edited"][Edited by 2004-09-09 22:14][/span]

In response to your latest mail, heaven, I'm not sure if the LFS (not really local) still exists. On my latest trip to Taiwan, I arranged to have a pair shipped over via my aunt. However, if you want, I can give you actual directions to the store, located smack dab in the middle of Taipei. I'll try and get in touch with my aunt next week or so to see if she still has their number or whether they're still around.

no worries heaven. I am finding all this stuf very interesting. keep them coming.

Alec

Responded.

Klee, I have been advised that a father daughter cross would be fine. Also, I have been contacted by a serious and well known angelfish breeder who is very interested in your Najas. Please check your forum mailbox for more details. Thanks!

I can not answer with authority, but I think you could expect to get one cross without degrading the quality of the offspring. Many stunning fish strains were created by line breeding, pairing best to best fish... Inbreeding generation after generation without a careful selection process (and infusion of new blood) eventually results in a loss of quality, though.

I'll refer you to an excellent article I found, although the slant is on birds, the concepts are the same: http://www.birdhouse.resteddoginn.ca/inbreeding.php

If I had your two Naja golds, and they were willing to pair, I would definitely raise up the fry (and take pictures along the way to document the frys colour development and get positive proof that they are indeed Najas) and see how the fry mature. I would keep a number of the best looking fish and probably cross them to wild silvers and then line breed the resulting fish.

Actually, as I am not a genetics expert, I'd ask some of the expert breeders for their advice.

The laces have long since been sold. One question heaven--would mating such closely related fish result in genetic disorders and such? Both father and daughter have been sharing the same tank for ages, and have shown no indication of pairing up.

Thanks for the pics Klee! Gee, I wish you were gonna backcross the female with her Dad... Is the black you want to pair her with a black lace progeny of your Naja gold pair?

Are you familiar with Dr. Norton's angelfish genetics articles? Here's a link to the one dealing with gold angels:
http://www.aquaworldnet.org/tas/DrNorton2.html

Alec, my appologies for hijacking your thread - hopefully you are finding this Naja Gold stuff of interest too.

The pics you have been so eagerly awaiting

here's daddy:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/Kleevage/daddy.jpg

the female sucumbed to hunger spike about a two years (or so) ago. He's camera shy, so pardon the fuzz. It was the best shot I could get of him.

here's his daughter:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/Kleevage/naja1.jpg

I plan on getting a blacky to try and pair off with my little naja. As for the big guy--I plan on just keeping him in the seventy alone.

EDIT: forgot to make the hypertext linkable.



[span class="edited"][Edited by Klee 2004-08-26 22:41][/span]

*fixed first link...there was a space in the url making it invalid* still didn't work but should be fixed now


[span class="edited"][Edited by jason_r_s 2004-09-08 06:23][/span]

[span class="edited"][Edited by jason_r_s 2004-09-08 06:24][/span]

I am quite sure there will be significant interest if you could get the Naja Golds to pair and could post pics of their offspring! Shoot - please post a pic of the adults to whet the appetite!

(Do you ship fish or would it be pick up only?)

Klee - you have Naja Golds?
Yes. Although I always thought it was spelled Naga. Oh well.

This strain has been reported as lost to the hobby.
That's news to me.

Naja golds start out looking like wild type silvers for about the first 9 months, then change to gold colouration. Buyers of Naja golds had to trust the dealer that the silver juvinille fish they were buying would eventually make the switch to gold...
Actually, I purchased a pair labelled as naja golds from Taiwan, shipped over. The two I have currently are offspring. When I first brought them up, they didn't look quite like silvers, as the vert bands didn't fully reach the length of the body and were blotchy in appearence. I did take note, however, on the eyes of both the mother and father, as well as the current offspring. The abnormally large and deep eyes are the trademark of the adult naja, IIRC. Also, it's hues aren't quite as vibrant as the larger norm gold angel with shares it's home. I'll posts pics ASAP. Btw, I'm not sure where you're getting the 9 month thing, as towards teh end of his career, P. Naja was able to get his golds to change within three months of birth (as did mine--or somewhere around that time span). As with the original strain, Najas come from a black lace heritage, and it can be expected (although the breeding was refined), that one will find several blackies mixed in with the crowd. I think out of a total of 3 spawnings, the pair yielded about 10% being black lace, and I even had a pure blackie, although it died some time later

Most breeders quickly made the switch to the "new gold" angel variant when it became available because the fry from this strain starts gold and stays gold, making sales of gold dime size fry a sure thing.
I'm sure it's not a normal (hong kong/wong). Btw, some people consider wong golds and the gold commonly found in fish stores to be two different strains; it is a continuing debate in the angelfish world. It has duller coloration and none of the telltale spots of the "true" golds

I know of folks who would be MOST interested if you do indeed still have fish of the Naja Gold line!
Uh, yeah, if I can get teh two to pair off, I could get you some pics of the offspring, if you're interested.


[span class="edited"][Edited by Klee 2004-08-26 00:15][/span]

Klee - you have Naja Golds?

This strain has been reported as lost to the hobby.

Naja golds start out looking like wild type silvers for about the first 9 months, then change to gold colouration. Buyers of Naja golds had to trust the dealer that the silver juvinille fish they were buying would eventually make the switch to gold...

Most breeders quickly made the switch to the "new gold" angel variant when it became available because the fry from this strain starts gold and stays gold, making sales of gold dime size fry a sure thing.

I know of folks who would be MOST interested if you do indeed still have fish of the Naja Gold line!

Hello All,

My Angel fry seem to be doing well thus far. I have divided my community tank (fry and parents on one side others on the other side). At this point every one seems to have really destressed.

Is it alright to keep the parents and the fry together or are the fry likely to be eaten? The parents have not eaten much since laying the eggs and caring for the eggs and fry. Should I be concerned about that?

Also, the fry don't seem to be eating. I have added a liquid food called "Liquifry No. 2" anyone ever heard of this? Should I change foods for now?

These fish are fascinating, I have never seen this parenting behavior in fish before since none have lasted this long. Too Cool.

Thanks again,

Alec

[span class="edited"][Edited by alecmacdonald 2004-07-10 13:01][/span]

My angel pair never exhibited aggression towards each other when in the community tank - they worked as an effective team to defend their spawns. The female would sit over a clutch of eggs, even when light to the tank was totally blacked out.

The aggression to each other only surfaced after the pair was given their own 20 gallon tank - it first seemed to start when the female wanted to respawn but the male, guarding babies, would not cooperate. She was cleaning a site and he was ignoring her. The female went on the attack, big time. She is markedly smaller than he is, yet she beat the heck out of him. He simply loiwered his head and took everything she was dishing out, never fought back. He hid behind the java fern and was nose down, gasping, sides scraped up, looked very bad and she was still following him and continuing the abusive behavior. I took her out and the male recovered and raised the fry by himself.

After reuniting the pair, I tried adding a few platies as dithers. This worked fine until the next set of fry freeswam and the angels became seriously intolerant, necessitating the removal of the platies. Constantly moving platies in and out of the tank was not a viable option, so I decided to use a divider whenever the pair is not in sync.

As for smart angels, I have one old male in the community tank that actively courts any ripe female so he can eat the eggs as fast as they are laid, sometimes plucking them directly from her vent. Once in a while, he gets "caught up in the spirit of things" and actually deigns to fertilize the later portion of a spawn, but afterwards he does not actively defend it from the other fish. However, when his "chosen one" spawns, he fertilizes every egg, and defends the spawn to the best of his ability, but compared to my other pair, this guy's defensive manouvers are pitifully inadequate.

I recently watched with amazement when one egg was accidentally dislodged during a spawn with "his gal". The male caught the egg as it fell through the water column and repeatedly spat it back onto the spawning site. After about 5 attempts, the egg either stuck on or was eaten by him, I'm not sure which, but it quit falling.

I've read that once given their own tank, a pair will not reintroduce to a community setting well. Myth or truth, I don't know. Eventually I'll probably try getting my volatile pair back into a community setting where I hope they will stay in harmony with no need for dividers. Right now they are busy spawning and are content.

I have been breeding angles for over 7 years and I have had over 12 diffrent pairs including my 4 that I have now, without seeing that type of aggresion. I have definitley seen aggresion between parents, but I never thought it was under those circumstances. I never knew angels were that smart.


-topher

[span class="edited"][Edited by topher02 2004-07-17 20:01][/span]

Klee, I am curious? How many Angel pairs do you have now, and how many have you had in your limited experience? I am very happy for you, that your Angels do not have any temperment problems. As Heaven stated some Angels will undoubtedly try to kill its partner if it feels(instinct)the other is eating eggs or free swimmers. I am currently working with 7 pairs.Most parent raise their young, but some dont. Some are very aggressive at breeding time, and some are very gentle to each other. It all depends on the pair. To say near death aggressiveness does not happen is a no no. Remember there are alot Angel breeders out there,and WE ALL can learn alot more. Listen to Heaven,she definately knows her sh*t. Mike

I highly doubt that an angelfish has the mental capabilty to be able to "suspect" it's mate of eating the eggs (consumption of the eggs is usually a mutual affair). I looked into it [one of my father's cowokers is actually a renowned breeder and has been breeding them for over thirty years(M. Ling), not to mention my own 10 year experience with them], and was told of several incidents where the pairs would nip a bit here and there , but never anywhere in the vicinity of "near death aggressiveness" described above. As for me, my pairs have NEVER had any temperment problems.

Angel pairs can indeed get seriously ticked at each other, esp when one sees (or thinks it sees) the other eat a baby. My male has nearly killed the female on at least two occasions and the female nearly did him in one time. And yes, this is a well bonded pair that has sucessfully parent raised fry. Having dither fish present to channel the pair's aggression at may be helpful. I use a divider with my pair when they are "on the outs".

It is very normal for a pair, or one of the pair, to be rather uninterested in food when guarding new fry. I still offer food, but in very small offerings - like one or two pellets (if thats what they eat) at a time. If the fish ignore it, don't add more till later in the day or the next day. If they accept the food, add more, in tiny increments, watching to be sure it is consumed. Some say to avoid feeding live food when the pair have wigglers or freeswimmers. I have fed frozen mysis to my pair when they had freeswimmers and that does not seem to confuse the parents.

I strongly recommend freshly hatched BBS as the first food. IMPORTANT - do not feed before the fry freeswim. At 80-82F this will usually be on day 7 after the spawning day. You will see the fry swim up in little organized schools. Thats when to feed. Until they truely freeswim, they are still absorbing their yolk sacks and will not eat. Feeding too soon only pollutes the water, causes bacterial blooms and fry motalities. Feed only a wee bit to start. Use a plastic syringe or pipette to gently squirt the BBS right into the school of fry. Watch for them to "hit" the BBS. When you see their tummies turn orange, you know they've fed. Do not overfeed. You want gently rounded tummies, not so full they look like they're ready to pop bellies.

You need to harvest the BBS shortly after the BBS hatch for maximum nutritional value and minimum "bite" size. Feed immediately or store in the fridge in brine for up to 24 hours.

I was thinking the same thing klee said although I didnt post it.