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actually they are Harem breeders. 1 male to many females but they lack any serious aggression so 1 male 1 female seems to work. harem is the best situation in a species tank but not everyon eis after a perfect world.

Since they're so expensive, I'm going to go with:
3-4 apistos (harem)
8 hatchets
10 neons

aquaclear 50 filter
moderately-heavily planted
6 amazon swords ATM, plan on getting hair grass, java ferns, and java moss. Maybe some floating plants too, any ideas?
driftwood and rock piles on either end on the tank for spawning.
ph:6.5
temp: 82 F
sound good?


Last edited by djtj at 29-Aug-2005 18:35

Good luck in your dwarf cichlid adventure, I just got some myself recently and so far it's very interesting
Cheerz !
DaFish

The Amazon Nut...

dont mess with the PH and that temp could stand to come down a tad but as long as nothing swings they should be fine in it.

Apistogramma cac's will run ya $30 or so for a pair which is a reasonable price. If i were you i would start with a simpler fish and get a happy tank stable first then think about Apistos later.

What do you mean by messing with the ph? The tank is empty (6 neons in q-tine). The fish at the store are kept at 6.5 and my tank is kept at 6.5. I don't get what you're saying there.

As for price, the guy at the store agreed that cacs aren't going to cost less than $10-$15 each. I asked if he had any of lesser quality for less money (like books said, $3-$7 variety). Unfortunately, he sepcializes in rare, expensive fish, so he didn't want to sell anything but the best. However, he is ordering some Apistogramma agassizii (yellow tail) next week which he says will go for $7 for the first fish and $3.50 for the second. Therefore, I'll get 4 of those so I can save money. I'm planing on getting alot more plants to balance that out. I'm still looking for a floating plant for the hatchets and neons, anyone have any ideas?

What do you suggest I keep the water at? 80? Or even less?

Hmm, the gravel is a bummer. Do you think I could add a big bag of sand (play sand, not black sand) and mix it together? That would make a beach-ish substrate. I did that once in a betta tank, and it looked amazing. Much more natural than a tank where all of the gravel was the same size.

What I don't get though, is that you said I can not plant too much, but then you said earlier that I should divide my tank with a big plant. I'm not dividing anymore, but I was just wondering how that would work.

Apistogramma are generally not supposed to be kept with others of its species and most definately can't be kept with blue rams. A colony of Apistogramma Agassizii would be great in that tank. If the bottom was well planted you could probably have another species of apistogramma.

I think, if it is densly planted in the middle and colonies are on opposite sides of the plants that you could have...

4 Apistogramma borellii (1 male 3 female, always use about a 1:3 m:f ratio with apistos

4 Apistogramma agassizii (again, 1 male and 3 females)

A school of glowlights would be a fine dither for these fish



Last edited by Tetra Fan at 03-Aug-2005 11:21

Last edited by Tetra Fan at 03-Aug-2005 12:02

Apistogramma are generally not supposed to be kept with others of its species and most definately can't be kept with blue rams.

That really puts a monkey wrench in my plans. ]:| I just have one question about what you said towards rams. Did you mean "most apistos can not be kept with rams?" Or did you mean that apistogramma in general can not be kept with rams?."

I know that chiclhids are territorial. However, is it possible for me to crowd them like you would African chichlids? That was what I origionally planed when I came out with the long list of fish.

What combination of fish could I use to be able to have the most number of speices in the tank? What if I stick with the 2" kind? Could I then mix borellii, ramirezi, and panduro? Or is 2 really pushing it as it is?

What other tankmates can I have? I'm not so sure I want tetras now. I don't like the idea of having to buy 6 individuals. I'm thinking along the lines of killifish where I can have 2 species of 3 individuals instead 1 school of 6. I'm also thinking of gouramis. Do you think sparkling gouramis would work with the chichlids. They're both about the same size and temperment, but they stick to different tank stratas.

You brought up a good point with the plant. How should I decorate the tank to avoid agression? What species of plants should I use? Should I get driftwood? I live near a park and I could find enough to make some kind of structural barrior. I was thinking of putting a long piece in the back to hide the heater, bubble wall, etc. What about rocks?

Well, there's my list of questions, sorry if it's very long, but I want to do things right.


EDIT:
Just checked out the chichlid forum. I found a post that seemed to relate to my question. Apistos and/or Rams

Here's one quote I found interesting

i have apisto agaszii;s and I have rams and they get along fine so I would think you'd be able to do that!

And here is an interesting strategy I found on keeping agression under control:

...you could go with 2 females and a male of one apisto species....or get 3 apistos all of different species and one ram. If you werent looking to breed them this is the way to go. I did it and its working very well. I have an A. Agassizi, A. Cocatuides, and one unidentified blue-face apisto. Since they dont pair up, they do not get too aggressive

Coud this be possible? I realize, it's probably not a good idea to have the fish without companions. But, what about all females? I've seen the pics and females don't seem to bad, except I'd just have alot of yellow. Or maybe all females with 1 male of 1 species. Could that work?

Last edited by djtj at 03-Aug-2005 20:54

You won't want to "crowd" these fish as with some African cichlids, because the dwarf South American cichlids can be much more sensitive. Very clean water is important, so you don't want to squeeze in too many fish.

Why do you want so many species of cichlids? If it were my tank, I'd stick with either one or two colonies of Apistogramma, and leave out the rams. Apistos are very interesting to watch when they're kept in species groups, as they form their relationships and territories. They'll bicker with each other and (if you do things right) possibly they'll feel up to spawning. Apistogramma cichlids in breeding colors look beautiful, and you get a certain amount of pride from having your Apistos lay eggs. Rams and angelfish are kept and bred much more often than the Apistogramma cichlids. They aren't (with the exceptions of A. cacatuoides and A. agassizii) all that common either, so a breeding program can fetch you a bit of extra money.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Ok, I'll go for that. I wanted all of them because I really can't pick out which fish I like the best. However, I haven't really considered that the stores might not have all of them anyway. I'm not sure what my sellection will be, but say for arguments sake that my two species are borellii and agassizii. It's time to make my stocking list.

I've pretty much filled out the mid-bottom level with the apistogramma. Therefore, I really don't want any bottom-feeders like bn or cories. I might consider ottos, but only because they swim around a bit. I really want to make sure I get the surface area filled out, so I'm going to try sparkling gouramis. Like the apistogramma, they are the "hidden jewls" of their genus. With both the top and bottom layers filled out, I now need to stock the mid-level. I'm thinking of a school of black phantoms.

So a rought list should look something like this
4 (1:3) Apistogramma agassizii
4 (1:3)Apistogramma borellii
3 ottos
4-5 sparkling gouramis
6+ black phantoms

If there is one thing in fish keeping that I am strongly deficient at, it is surface area. What is the surface area of a 30"x12" 20 gallon long? Do I have too much fish? Just enough? Or could I even squeeze in a few more phantoms?

Choose one or the other of the apistos. Then drop the gouramis. Then your set. You don't want to overstock with apistos since they can be sensitive. If you want a schooling surface dweller then go with some hatchetfish and drop the gouramis and tetras.

4 (1:3) Apistogramma agassizii
4 (1:3)Apistogramma borellii
3 ottos
4-5 sparkling gouramis
6+ black phantoms

Y HELO THAR OVERSTOCK. Sparklers are too fragile for apistos, and two species cannot be mixed in a 20 long, as they do not have a fixed territory. The male agassiziis that I have kept will roam the extent of the tank, keeping at least one good eye on their females. I would suggest something les robust than black phatnoms, especially if you plan on raising any fry.

4 Apistogramma borellii
6 ottos
6 cardinals

or something to that effect.

You really probably could get away with the 2 apisto species if you did have a sort of barrier in the middle of the tank that would be hard to get around. But really I myself would prefer a species only tank with dither fish.

A colony of apistogamma borellii in my mind would be top of the list for my ideas on stocking this tank.

Get about 8 fish to start out with. 1:3 male:female ratio which with 8 fish works out to be a 2:6 ratio male:female.

Get a small school of dither fish. Like Cardinal Tetras or Glowlight Tetras. Black phantoms actually are kind of in the bigger tetra range and usually just LOOK better in a larger tank IMO.

And 2 or 3 otos as algae clean up.

That would be the most attractive aquarium you could make in this situation an in my mind and I think it would look pretty good

And don't forget to have caves. If you plan on breeding them (who could resist?) then you will need a few cavews for them to spawn in. They usually spawn on the cave roof and then they will bury the entrance with sand til the eggs hatch, so use a small cave entrance. Get clay flower pot dishes (you know the things that some poeople set flower pots in to catch the extra water?) and carefully chip a small hole for the cave entrance. (Make sure it is big enough for the fish to get into it). Sand the cave entrance so that it is not sharp and ta da. Apistogramma borelii caves that ahve low roofs to spawn and have an entrance easy to cover with sand

Just figured I should add that if this is the way you want to go.

Last edited by Tetra Fan at 04-Aug-2005 11:55

I now understand that I'm overstocked. I have a habit for doing that when I'm in the planning stage. I think of one fish and then go to another and so on. I'm just happy I have enough self-control to hold back when I'm, actually buying fish

Choose one or the other of the apistos. Then drop the gouramis. Then your set. You don't want to overstock with apistos since they can be sensitive. If you want a schooling surface dweller then go with some hatchetfish and drop the gouramis and tetras.

Great idea, I'm a fan of hatchets. My only concern is that the hatchets will escape through the filter hole in my canopy. Is there anything I could do about this?

I think I will go with the 1 species idea. I don't know what species the store carries though.

New list:
8 apistogramma sp.
? marbled hatchet fish
? ottos

just cut a peice of window screen or some other screen to fit over the hole...probably can be stapled there.

Hatchet fish is a good idea if you are a fan of them

8 Apistogramma borelii
6 Marbled Hatchets
2-3 otos

Sound good to you?

Last edited by Tetra Fan at 04-Aug-2005 13:17

we have a pair of blue rams and a pair of apistogramma cacatuoides in our 70g community tank and they get on fine.
full stocking list is on my profile, it might give you some ideas.

Ok, so
8 apistos (borelii if I can get them)
6 hatchets
3 ottos
Sounds great!

What do I add first? I know ottos need a stable algae colony, so they should be last, right? So, should I add the apistos or the hatchets first? And how many at a time?

How active are apistos? I'm worried that they're going to stick to the gravel.

And what should I do as far as layout, technical, etc? What should the ph be? temperature?

I already have the gravel in the tank. It's a bit smaller than pea-sized. I am going to have 2 filters. I already have a whisper mini submersiable fiter. I'm going to buy a real filter as well as plants and a thermometer etc. tomorrow or the day after.

I'm really getting excited about this breeding thing too. That would be a great excuse to bring back my old 5 gallon. Maybe I could even have a trio of my beloved sparkling gouramis in there after I sell the fry.

Speaking of the fry.... How much is each apisto going to cost? And how long do you think it is going to take for them to breed?

Last edited by djtj at 04-Aug-2005 13:36

Depends on how you take care of them.

If you wish to breed them, they will be fine growing up with the parents, just be sure to remove them when they get about as big as the parents as to not confuse them with your original breeding pairs.

Apistos are actually pretty active I tihnk. they will stick to the gravel, but they will move around a lot. Pea gravel is ok, but I think they would look awesome against a black sandy substrate. Plus it is easier for them to cover the entrance to there cave with sand. So to breed actually, you do need sand and therefore you can't really plant the tank except with java moss or something. It's a trade off really.

pH probabaly low to mid 6 would be good.

Temps in the upper 70's possibly very low 80's.

Apistogramma can be expensive sometimes and other time not so it really depends on your lfs.

we have a pair of blue rams and a pair of apistogramma cacatuoides in our 70g community tank and they get on fine.

Thats because the footprint of a 70 is huge, they would barely see each other at all.

So you could probably save your 5 gallon tank for a betta since the fry can grow up with the adults

Good luck, breeding apistos is probably not the easiest thing in the world, but it's worth a shot if you can even get the species

Last edited by Tetra Fan at 04-Aug-2005 13:44

I've been having a great deal of trouble deciding what to stock my new 20 gallon long with. I was thinking of doing a big (as in 6" chichlid species tank with firemouths. I've also though of a neo. multi. tank with a centerpiece fish. And, of course, the usual comunity tank has always been on my mind.

However, I think I've found a genra of fish that combines a chichlid's personality with a small size suitable for a community tank. You guessed it, apistrogamma!

I was thinking of having a 3 fish harem of agassizii and a pair of german blue rams as my "big fish". Then I would have 3-4 of both panduro and borellii (which are both tiny). I am planning on having a school of 6 glowlights as my dither fish. And possibly, if I can fit them, a trio of clown killi's or a pair of dwarf gouramis for the top.

Altoghether, this is about 35" of fish. I'll confess that I know little about surface area. But I do know that the tank is 30" x 12".

Does anyone have some suggestions? Ideas?

Eight is a lot, IMO. Borellii, though a placid intra specific apisto, is not a communal player. These fish are one of the many apistos that tend not to form two male colonies. In high fish concentrations, the females will turn on the males. With eight fish in a 20, your two males will be beaten up something awful. Even four female agazzisii ended up shredding my male's fins. Also, you'll most likely want dither fish, as even with 3 females and a male in a twenty long, you could have a bit of squabbling. Henceforth, for all my dwarf cichlid tanks (currently, all I keep are two checkerboards), I prefer mid water, docile tetras. Also, on second thought, I would choose neons, as borellii do prefer the water a bit cooler than other apistos.

"How much is each apisto going to cost?"
Borellii generally go for about 14 bucks per. You can strike some gold on aquabid, but they generally sell spawnmates as pairs.




Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 04-Aug-2005 14:08

So how do you suggest I change my list? Is something like this appropriate?

4 apistos
3 ottos
6 hatchets
6 neons

If this makes any difference, I'm going to really overfilter this sucker too. I already have a whisper mini in there and I'm picking up an aquaclear tomorrow. I'm probably getting a 30 or 50 depending on price.

What I don't get though, is that you said I can not plant too much, but then you said earlier that I should divide my tank with a big plant.

lol thats my bad, I forgot that plants don't do good in sand and wasn't thinking about it when i first posted.

Apistogramma borellii are supposed to be kept in 1:3 male to female ratios to cut down on agression. The females are not going to turn on the males. Males can be quite violent sometimes so you would not want a bunch of males fighting for territory in a 20 gallon. and actually, belevie it or not, a lot of male apistogramma borellii will sometimes hang around with 4 females at a time, so actually they are quite fine forming a 2 male colony.

It would be ok to sprinkle play sand over the gravel, that would be fine and the borellii would appreciate the sand.

Rinse the sand well. Rinse rinse rinse rinse rinse.

Did I mention rinse the sand well?

Ok, tetras are no different than hatchetfish as dithers. So chose either hatchets or neons/cardinals. Not both as it would take away from the only 4 borelli, though I still think 8 is perfectly fine.

I say stick with this sotcking...

8 apistogramma borellii
6 hatchetfish
3 otos.

There is no reason you should not be able to have a 2:6 ratio with borelli in a 20 gallon tank, it is fine to have that ratio and it should not and probably will not cause problems.

In fact, this next quote is taken directly form the Fish Profiles profile of this fish.

Use an acidic pH (6.0-6.2) and a higher temperature of up to 28°C. The eggs are laid on the roof of a cave or an upturned pot. The female carefully guards the fry but sometimes lacks security with the eggs. Use a ratio of one male to three or four females.

It is even recommended to have that kind of ratio, and in a 20 gallon I see no reason why you can have 2 breeding groups instead of just 1.

Ok, tetras are no different than hatchetfish as dithers. So chose either hatchets or neons/cardinals. Not both as it would take away from the only 4 borelli, though I still think 8 is perfectly fine.

I only considered tetras because cup suggested it. I personally dislike the little buggers. I like fish with brains, namely chichlids.

it would be ok to sprinkle play sand over the gravel, that would be fine and the borellii would appreciate the sand.

What do you mean by sprinkle? I was going to replace ½ of my gravel and add a whole buntch of sand. Or could I just add a little sand? I have a bag of estes' in the closet. Would that work?

By sprinkle I meant you could add sand to the gravel bed...I think I should chose my words more carefully with you

The females are not going to turn on the males. Males can be quite violent sometimes so you would not want a bunch of males fighting for territory in a 20 gallon. and actually, belevie it or not, a lot of male apistogramma borellii will sometimes hang around with 4 females at a time, so actually they are quite fine forming a 2 male colony.



Have you kept an apisto species before? Females will attack each other and their mate should space be confined. In a twenty long, more likely than not, two colonies will not form; rather, one male will be chased and bullied.

Did you even refer to the quote form the profiles?

In fact I HAVE kept an apisto species before and have not had this problem.

"Did you even refer to the quote form the profiles?"
The profiles also once said that most apisto species only grew to around 1.5" .

"In fact I HAVE kept an apisto species before and have not had this problem."
It is well established that females will chase and occassionally kill both sub dominant and dominant suitors (not to mention each other and vice versa). Which ones? Have they ever spawned? How large were they? What size aquarium? When did you purchase them?

I have kept both cacs (a pair) and agassizii (male and four females, one which died as a result of inter specific abuse), the latter for about 6 months and the former for about one (holding for a customer). The latter produced two small broods of fry (promptly rescued), but they were already reputable breeders, so that was no issue. They were both kept in a 75 gallon with one watermelon royal, parancistrus, panaqolus, congos, and cardinals. The ags were promptly moved to a 29 tall after their first spawn, which turned out badly, as aggression killed one of the females and left the male badly tattered (this tank held only them and several centromulchus perugiae. Prior to that, I had read up much on apistos and came to understand that female aggression was quite vicious in many species. I suppose I found out the hard way. I got rid of the cacs when they were picked up and the aggs when I purchased my first pair of L-262.





Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 05-Aug-2005 09:37

My old 20 long, they were borellii, never spawned, but did not seem to bother each other.

What do you mean you don't recall me ever having apisto's? Have I ever said I have never kept them before?

I have kept borelli, but only for a short time, I was holding them for someone else at the time, I had them for about a month and then he took them back to put them in a display tank in the store. After that I made it a guppy tank (boy do I regret getting those guppies). They were about 2 inches at the time I was holding them.

So yes, I have kept them. Not as my own, but they were perfectly healthy for the month I kept them. They did not spawn because I had too high a pH (7.4 at the time).
They did not attack the other male.

djtj, really it is your decision on who you take the advice from, I'm not letting go of my theory so if you think Cups is right, by all means take his advice.


Last edited by Tetra Fan at 04-Aug-2005 16:05

pH is no issue for hardier apistos such as borelli, panduro, ags, etc. My pH nears 8 and is very hard, and yet it yielded two spawns. Cacs are supposedly more intolerant than other. By the way, aggression is most often displayed during spawning or conditioning. Hey, if you want topay for 8 specimens, go right ahead, but heed my warning, they are not "cheap" fish, and I would hate to lose any of them. Then again, it's up to you. I am not jumping on your back because of something as silly as a grudge, but rather that, if we are to help dj set up a tank, then at least one would think that we have the obligation to provide him with correct information. Considering your fish were not mature at the time nor were they inclined to spawn, the specs you have provided are somewhat inaccurate.

DJ, what you do is up to you. It's your tank. I am only advising you with the best of my knowledge, which may or may not be sufficient.





Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 04-Aug-2005 16:22

Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 05-Aug-2005 09:35

djtj, really it is your decision on who you take the advice from, I'm not letting go of my theory so if you think Cups is right, by all means take his advice.

Don't worry, I've dealt with cup before. We're always going at it about stuff. Stingrays, birds, you name it. In fact they even closed the bird post because of us and Dave. Unfortunately though, he has a knack for being right (Cup, I'm never going to admit that to you again )

Anyway, I'm really itching to go down to the store and actually see these guys in person. I want to watch them for a bit before I make up my mind. I know far too little about these fish to take anyone's side here.

But I have to say, really did enjoy reading you guys go at it. Even though your points fell on deaf ears towards each other, I certainly heard them.

EDIT:
I've realized that I really didn't give cup a chance to give me a stocking list. Tetra's list is the one I've been using so far. I'm not saying I'm going to change it, but I was wondering what cup would do to it.

Last edited by djtj at 04-Aug-2005 16:22